Vote: What's more fair chase?

What's more fair chase?

  • No fence with congregating food sources (plots or feeders)

    Votes: 11 36.7%
  • In a fence, but no congregating food source

    Votes: 3 10.0%
  • Epstein didn't kill himself

    Votes: 19 63.3%

  • Total voters
    30
Years ago a fellow was trying to justify fair chase inside a fence and asked me, “Ok so what about hunting on an island in the middle of the MS river...what’s the difference?”

My response, “The deer got on the island on their own...and they can get off.”
 
I hope this works. We might break the internet with this thread.

I think we may have stumbled onto something worth discussing. I have no dog in this fight, but I think these conversations are worth having if we're to evolve and preserve the sport in a world that is rapidly eliminating wild lands. So, let's dig in.

Thinking about what is fair chase.... cast your vote, and you can vote for multiple choices.

**Assume equal deer per square mile inside the fence as outside the fence, and high quality thick habitat, no state plywood fields.


It is a great question and I use a similar one in my Hunter Ed classes. Is it ethical to hunt behind a high fence? Few if any hands go up. What if the fenced area is a military base with 50,000 acres? Some folks begin to change their minds... How about an island? We can go on and on. Is a stick bow more fair chase than a rifle? I've heard some folks say fair chase is when the animal has a 50% chance or greater of living another day. As we increase technology when we hunt perhaps we move further from fair chase, but do we improve our recovery rates? As we increase the chance the deer lives do we end up with more wounded deer? Do we lump point source food sources like bait piles and feeders in the same category as food plots? Do deer relate to them the same? Food plots are available 24/7 and, by far, our food plots are use mostly after dark. Is that true with a feeder that rings the dinner bell at a certain time of day?

Fair chase and ethics are great subjects for discussion. Where I grew up in PA, if you saw a dog chasing a deer you were expected to shoot the dog. Here in VA and in some other parts of the south, hunting deer with dogs is a long time tradition.

How do our decisions impact the future of hunting? Do we raise the bar for entry as we make hunting more difficult? How does the non-hunting public react when we make it too easy and it is seen as shooting fish in a barrel?


Thanks,

Jack
 
Personally I don't view either as fair chase....so I had to choose the Epstien option or not vote. Again just me personally.
 
At the risk of censure I'll offer personal experience on the subject but rather than using the term 'fair chase' { which imo has become to emotionally loaded and somewhat meaningless} I'll approach the question from the perspective of " challenging to hunt with the normal hide and escape opportunities a deer typically uses". As a background I own a 1350 acre game fenced enclosure in La. that I fenced about 9 years ago. That after managing it low fence for 35+ years before that. I also own a 25,000 acre ranch in prime whitetail country along the Rio Grande River in Northern Mexico.That ranch is divided into 3 'pastures'; a 2500 acre game fenced pasture, a 6000 acre game fenced pasture , and the rest over 15,000 low fenced. The entire ranch is managed identically.

Following the way the question was asked, my farm is hi fenced with food plots all over the place...over 130 acres. However the woods are super thick with annual TSI creating high quality browse all over the farm. So both fence and congregating food source. But very light hunting pressure .And without question it is the most challenging and hardest place to hunt. There are bucks I have pictures of that I have only seen once or twice ever even though I'm on the farm every day.

I have offered the challenge more than once where I offered a known mature buck on my farm available to hunt. If you get him you have a terrific trophy. If you don't get him you pay my annual management expense. Yet to have any takers.

For the pastures in Mexico, there is absolutely no difference in the challenge of the hunt between the pastures. There are no congregating food sources there...too dry to grow a food plot without irrigation and we don't have spin type corn feeders on the ranch. So both hi and low fence with no congregating food source. Thats said If anything the smaller pasture is the hardest to hunt because it is closer to the river, and much thicker than the other pastures.

So based on the questions above and my experience with both circumstances...I have to go with door #3 ----as it all can be fair chase if circumstances are right
 
I think it’s easy to kill any old deer on a food plot in September.

Easier to kill a monster in a pen

and Epstein was taken out by a Clinton pal.
 
IMHO, it's impossible to measure fair chase by any standards but your own. To me, fair chase represents time and energy. If I don't have any skin in the game, I don't value the result as much, even if I come out ahead. It's just luck at that point.

I don't judge what other folks determine to be fair chase, so long as they make a clean kill and value the resource, even if it's something that is unappealing to me. This is a team sport, and we should stick together.
 
As a small land owner, I have made my own goals to take a deer, and it is what lets me sleep at night. I dont own enough land to make an impact for anything, but my hunting land is in a cold area, where the stress period is winter. So I do what I can to help them out during their hard time. I offer some fall, and winter food, and some early spring food. I offer some good thick ground cover for does and fawns in the spring, and early summer. My son and I take a couple deer a year from my land, no trophys to date, but we are happy with what we take. But in my mind, the food, and cover I provide them, is a net positive for the deer, and figure because of my help, I save more then a couple deer by offering them a safe place, with some food to last them through a part of the year.

If killing a deer is your priority, then a bait pile, or high fence shouldnt bother you. If hunting is what you are there for, then in my mind, a pile of corn to draw one in, isnt hunting. As for high fences, if you have enough acres, sure you can still "hunt" the property, just as you would hunt any non fenced area, and the hunt wouldnt be much different. But it is skewed, and therefor I dont consider it a "fair hunt".

I am not saying either is bad, but it all depends on what you are after. Is your goal is to just get a deer? Then if legal, throw down a pile of corn and sit over it, you will have a good chance at being successful. If your goal is to shoot big deer, then have a high fence, and you can grow, and shoot "your" deer as you wish, and not have to worry about outside influences that may shorten the life of your deer. But if you are out there for the hunt, using corn to artificially draw deer in, isnt a fair hunt, and using a fence, to artificially keep deer to yourself until they are to your satisfaction in size, isnt a fair hunt either.

In my mind, if I see my neighbor shoot a 140" buck, I will be more proud of him, then some city slicker that paid $10,000 to shoot a fenced deer in the 190" class. But the good thing is, you be you, I will be me, I will do what makes me sleep at night, and you can do what makes you sleep at night, as long as it is legal!
 
What makes a food plot, planted in part, for the attraction of deer to be hunted over, more fair chase than depositing bait, in part, for the attraction of deer to be hunted over?
 
What makes a food plot, planted in part, for the attraction of deer to be hunted over, more fair chase than depositing bait, in part, for the attraction of deer to be hunted over?

Having experienced both at one time in Kansas - for me it is the utter control one has over when and how a deer can consume bait which separates it incredibly far from food plots.

To me the only connection each has is they deliver a consumable to an animal. After that it stops. Bait is fully dependent upon a human for its existence, and can as Jack or someone cannot remember illustrated can "ring a dinner bell" if on a timer and condition food availibility even more so.
 
I use every advantage I have to manipulate the habitat and hunt on my place. There isn't a thing about my place even close to fair when viewed in the context of someone else hunting public land a quarter mile away. I don't get hung up on the purity of it, because frankly, it's required to keep deer alive and to provide vast and undivided cover to them.

For the most part, adult bucks are nocturnal year round by me. There are a few rule breakers, but there will never be an antler on camera or seen during the day outside perhaps the best 5 days of rut or you have managed to go deep into undisturbed cover without getting busted. That is also part of the draw for me.

I go deep into the nitty gritty on forage desirability, permanent ground blinds, quiet access, scent free access, low visibility access, water, natural blockades, food plots, nose jammer, cover manipulation, browse manipulation, no-improvement zones to avoid attracting deer where I need to move, no-go zones whether all year or after labor day.

I exploit everything. I kill nothing. Some days I think I'm a terrible hunter.
 
Lots of angles to this question. I chose to not address it seriously yesterday and sleep on it. I personally feel that most everybody baits in some manner. Out west they hunt near water tanks, in ag country people hunt fields or staging area's, during the rut we hunt doe bedding area's, we make mock scrapes, we use trailcams to find patterns, we find oaks dropping acorns, we plant food plots, orchards, cover, hinge, modify paths, rake leafs, etc. To not use ANYTHING to your advantage is silly. To what extent you use things and to what extent you modify something is your choice. Peeing in a scrape is in fact a modification and baiting in a manner. Throwing out corn is a multifacited question; a bag a season, a 500lb pile, a feeder on a timer? All different! In ag country we look for cover, in the big forests up north they look for an opening with food. What about dogs? In some parts of the country drives and dog are perfectly acceptable. To not use at least something as bait seems like not much fun at all.

Fence? Ever try to catch a 10lb bass in a farm pond? Just because it's there doesn't mean you can get it. As pointed out previously in this thread enclosure and cover in it may make a huge difference.

I stand by my stance that I don't care how anyone else hunts or find any of it offensive on a personal level. I find no moral corruption with different hunting styles. Now if my buddy came up and told me he cheated on his wife I would be disappointed in him, if he told me he shot a deer over a corn pile in an enclose I wouldn't think twice about it. Notice I said "a deer"... do you guys think it matters if it's a doe or a 190 that got baited and shot? Or is a deer a deer? If it does matter, why?
 
Where is the line drawn on "fair hunt", if high fence is fair hunting?

There use to be a game farm in my area. You could go online and scroll through pictures of their bucks, pay for a weekend hunt, for whichever deer you wanted them to release into a 100 acre high fenced area, and go out and "hunt" it.

Is this a fair hunt? This place got shut down for doing shady things, but they kept their deer, and would sell them to other outfitters, until they got permanently shut down for CWD.

If your friend went out and purchased one of these deer and shot it, and had the 190 inch rack mounted, would you feel like he earned that deer? I wouldnt!
 
Lots of angles is correct. 80 acres fenced ain’t much. 800 acres fenced and I have to believe it’s not much different than wild unless their hand fed.

farm lot bucks (like mine) are much easier to kill then north woods bucks no doubt. Terrain, timber, water, food all play into it.

To a north woods guy I’m cheating. We have fingers and draws and funnels with food plots and high deer numbers.
 
My daughter says fair chase occurs only when the deer can shoot back! Ouch!
 
Great comparison!


Maybe a good comparison, but it still isnt fair.

If I stock 10pound bass in a farm pond, and I am the only one that can fish for them, I have a good chance at catching a 10 pound bass. At least a much better chance then going to some random lake, and have to try to catch a 10 pound bass like most people. Say you stock 10 10 pound bass in this 5 acre pond, and you have complete control of this pond. You want to catch these big bass and show off, all you have to do is stop feeding them for a few weeks and they will hit anything that moves in that water.

Just like high fence deer, if you drop down a few bushel of corn, when they normally dont get corn, you can bet those fenced deer will be chowing on corn. I am not saying it is wrong, but I am saying it isnt the same as hunting/fishing without fences, or a land locked pond on private land.
 
"would you feel like he earned that deer? I wouldnt!"

I'm not sure what is earned when a deer is killed. Is it bragging rights? Is it ego? What if he had purchased a 110 class buck or even a doe and had it mounted, would that be different than the 190? Would it matter if it was smaller than a deer you normally shoot, or only if it's bigger than a deer you normally shoot? Is there a line in the sand based on size? I believe there is for a lot of people. I could be wrong but I truly doubt most people care about little bucks and does that get shot under less than fair conditions, it's a big buck thing. With that said I've only cared about how I shot deer and if I felt I had done it in a way that I was comfortable with. I really wouldn't care if someone mounted a road kill or decorated their house with replica's of other peoples record bucks. I have still not had a mount done. I will when I shoot a deer that is one that is big.

I just re-read the post I've written. I hope you (4wonderingeyes) don't take it as a slam on your opinion. I respect your posts and enjoy them regularly. You asked me a question that went pretty deep in my opinion. My opinion stands that I don't care what someone else does, I feel no need to measure my efforts against them in hunting. With that said I understand the viewpoint. I am a very competitive person and will whip it out for a measuring contest in a heartbeat. I like to race and run marathons... what the hell does that mean in the grand scheme of things? Nothing, but I sure as hell like to win! If I was to view hunting the same way I view running I would be very offended by someone bragging about a 190 that they took under unfair conditions. I just don't see hunting in that light.
 
No slam taken on my part, and like you, I personally dont care how one takes their game, as long as it is legal. I had paid a guide in Canada for a guided deer hunt, to me it didnt feel like hunting at all. He showed me pictures of deer in different areas, no scouting on my part, no work done to find the deer on my part, just point at deer that I would like to shoot. He drove me to the spot, helped me into a tree stand, handed me food and water for the day, picked me up after the day, gut, drug my deer back, hung it, cleaned it, processed it, and mounted it for me. I ate the meat, donated the head to a local bar, with no mention of my name on it. I take no mention to the inches of that deer as my deer. Infact this is the only time I have mentioned anything about that hunt, other then the year I was on that hunt. I am not proud of that hunt. But that is me. If you, or anyone else considers that hunting, great! I wish I could enjoy that, because I could get big deer every year, and for a lot less work then I spend now trying to shoot much smaller deer then what I paid for. In fact it would probably be cheaper to pay for it as well. I guess I enjoy the scouting, the habitat work to draw in the deer, and try to outsmart one. To me that is more exciting then hunting itself.
 
I've never been on a guided hunt. No interest in it for the exact reasons you listed. I love habitat work, scouting, agonizing over wind direction/entrance exit routes/scent control/etc. Fun stuff!

Conversely, I went stripper fishing on Texoma some time back. Paid someone to take me out on their boat, find the fish, use their tackle, and clean the fish for me. I felt odd waiting as someone cleaned my catch, wanted to jump in and help. IT WAS A BLAST though! and something I could/would have never done on my own. Those fish tasted pretty good...
 
Just like high fence deer, if you drop down a few bushel of corn, when they normally dont get corn, you can bet those fenced deer will be chowing on corn. I am not saying it is wrong, but I am saying it isnt the same as hunting/fishing without fences, or a land locked pond on private land.
Not necessarily true in many cases and certainly not true on my farm. Sure you might get the girls and young bucks to come but it doesn't work at all for mature deer. I've read so many misconceptions about how folks believe deer behave and what the hunting is like on a well managed properly scaled high fenced property it makes me wonder how many folks are speaking from experience or simply preconceived notions of what it 'might' be like?
 
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