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Stark Bros - root stock selection change

2ndHand

5 year old buck +
Passing info along as a FYI - spoke with Stark Bros this afternoon about my spring 2019 commercial order (50 + trees) they are no longer offering commercial customers the ability to select the root stock. This policy change includes previously placed orders for 2019. I placed my order in June for B.118 root stock which I canceled today since the root stock will no longer be confirmed for commercial accounts. Disappointing.
 
That makes absolutely no sense. Rootstock is more important to commercial customers than anyone else, due to their livelihood depending on it.

I think they will regret that decision. I can't imagine anyone going ahead and placing an order.
 
I planted about a dozen pears from Stark last fall quite a few varieties I didn't have, three of them just out right died, one died of fire blight this summer...none of them have grown well for one year in the ground. In the past my Stark trees had done OK but the last batch was disapointing.
 
What I find disappointing is the fact that if I had not called to question my order quantity I would not have been informed about the root stock change prior to delivery of the trees as the invoice had no disclosure of the policy change.
 
Like Native Hunter, I think they'll be sorry they made that decision. I won't buy ANY trees that I don't know the rootstock.
 
That's odd. What rootstock will they be using? Or is it a grab bag where you could get the Wal-Mart special rootstock that can't survive a WI or MN winter?
 
We tend to think that nurseries like Stark are making a living by producing and selling to the retail market alone. But most large nurseries probable make most of their sales to commercial growers who plan ahead and order 1000's of trees on a particular rootstock a few years ahead of time. The homeowner or hobby orchardist is a niche market. Whatever the Retail Nursery happens to graft or whatever is left over from wholesale orders is what we, the retail buyer get to choose from. Because of the ever-changing possibilies of rootstock grafts and varieties if would be a monumental task for the Retail Nurseries to keep track of inventory. For a nursery to graft every variety onto every rootstock to make the Retail Buyer happy would inevitably lead to too many trees never being sold at a decent profit. And even doing that they would sell out of the prefered varieties on the preferred rootstocks.

Nurseries are either Wholesale or Retail or both. Wholesale nurseries graft thousands of one variety and rootstock as a custom graft for commercial growers and do not sell to the retail buyer. Wholesale nurseries do not even graft trees for the retail market but will sell extra trees wholesale to Retail nurseries. (I don't know if Stark produces all its own trees or buys some wholesale. If it buys wholesale trees then they cannot control what rootstock those trees will be on. They buy what is available.)

Wholesale nurseries sell their extra trees to the Retail Nursery market who then sell to hobby orchardists and home owners. Therefore the trees available to retail orders are a mishmash of whatever is left over from wholesale orders. All Rootstocks cannot be guaranteed at wholesale prices.

Some retail nurseries will custom graft a custom tree for you (any rootstock onto any variety they have), but the price will be higher and the wait will be longer for your custom tree. Of course, if you have the time to go that route you might as well order your own rootstocks and graft your own trees.

I do not nor have I ever worked in the wholesale or retail nursery industry, but this is what I have gleaned from talking to nursery owners about why they do not advertise the rootstock type on their apple tree orders. Usually all that is advertised is that the apple tree variety is "dwarf" (B9, M7) or "semi-dwarf" (M106, MM111, B118), and there is no guarantee of the actual rootstock used. Sometimes if you badger the nursery they can tell you their best guess if they look at the actual tree they are selling you. The trees they are often color-coded as to rootstock type.

Therefore if you absolutely REQUIRE your apple tree on a known rootstock due to environment or climate, graft your own.
 
I won't buy from them. They always seemed a bit too big for their britches.

If I'm going to buy grab bag trees I can well buy them from Cummins like I did this year. Cummins was outstanding for the price, service, and quality I received.

I am happy with grab bag trees for grab bag prices. But it seems a bit silly to pay premium prices for grab bag trees.

I really hope St. Lawrence rebounds well. I'm nervous to try places during periods of uncertainty, but I'll happily try them if everything turns out well.
 
We tend to think that nurseries like Stark are making a living by producing and selling to the retail market alone. But most large nurseries probable make most of their sales to commercial growers who plan ahead and order 1000's of trees on a particular rootstock a few years ahead of time. The homeowner or hobby orchardist is a niche market. Whatever the Retail Nursery happens to graft or whatever is left over from wholesale orders is what we, the retail buyer get to choose from. Because of the ever-changing possibilies of rootstock grafts and varieties if would be a monumental task for the Retail Nurseries to keep track of inventory. For a nursery to graft every variety onto every rootstock to make the Retail Buyer happy would inevitably lead to too many trees never being sold at a decent profit. And even doing that they would sell out of the prefered varieties on the preferred rootstocks.

Nurseries are either Wholesale or Retail or both. Wholesale nurseries graft thousands of one variety and rootstock as a custom graft for commercial growers and do not sell to the retail buyer. Wholesale nurseries do not even graft trees for the retail market but will sell extra trees wholesale to Retail nurseries. (I don't know if Stark produces all its own trees or buys some wholesale. If it buys wholesale trees then they cannot control what rootstock those trees will be on. They buy what is available.)

Wholesale nurseries sell their extra trees to the Retail Nursery market who then sell to hobby orchardists and home owners. Therefore the trees available to retail orders are a mishmash of whatever is left over from wholesale orders. All Rootstocks cannot be guaranteed at wholesale prices.

Some retail nurseries will custom graft a custom tree for you (any rootstock onto any variety they have), but the price will be higher and the wait will be longer for your custom tree. Of course, if you have the time to go that route you might as well order your own rootstocks and graft your own trees.

I do not nor have I ever worked in the wholesale or retail nursery industry, but this is what I have gleaned from talking to nursery owners about why they do not advertise the rootstock type on their apple tree orders. Usually all that is advertised is that the apple tree variety is "dwarf" (B9, M7) or "semi-dwarf" (M106, MM111, B118), and there is no guarantee of the actual rootstock used. Sometimes if you badger the nursery they can tell you their best guess if they look at the actual tree they are selling you. The trees they are often color-coded as to rootstock type.

Therefore if you absolutely REQUIRE your apple tree on a known rootstock due to environment or climate, graft your own.

OR buy from Cummins Nursery...
 
^^^^ Interesting article, Native. Lots of info in there.

2nd Hand - My camp bought lots of trees from Cummins with no problems at all.

Thanks for the info Bowsnbuck! 2019 was the first year I was going to try Starks as I was seeking varieties not currently offered by Cummins. Cummins has been the only nursery I have previously used - normally buying 50-60 per year. Have around 220 in the ground with 55 on order for spring 2020. Working on building a small 400 tree orchard for retirement in a few years - I hope!! Bought a press line last fall from an orchard in MI and on the lookout for a good used donut robot for making cider donuts! Thanks again!!
 
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever and find it hard to believe.
 
We tend to think that nurseries like Stark are making a living by producing and selling to the retail market alone. But most large nurseries probable make most of their sales to commercial growers who plan ahead and order 1000's of trees on a particular rootstock a few years ahead of time. The homeowner or hobby orchardist is a niche market. Whatever the Retail Nursery happens to graft or whatever is left over from wholesale orders is what we, the retail buyer get to choose from. Because of the ever-changing possibilies of rootstock grafts and varieties if would be a monumental task for the Retail Nurseries to keep track of inventory. For a nursery to graft every variety onto every rootstock to make the Retail Buyer happy would inevitably lead to too many trees never being sold at a decent profit. And even doing that they would sell out of the prefered varieties on the preferred rootstocks.

Nurseries are either Wholesale or Retail or both. Wholesale nurseries graft thousands of one variety and rootstock as a custom graft for commercial growers and do not sell to the retail buyer. Wholesale nurseries do not even graft trees for the retail market but will sell extra trees wholesale to Retail nurseries. (I don't know if Stark produces all its own trees or buys some wholesale. If it buys wholesale trees then they cannot control what rootstock those trees will be on. They buy what is available.)

Wholesale nurseries sell their extra trees to the Retail Nursery market who then sell to hobby orchardists and home owners. Therefore the trees available to retail orders are a mishmash of whatever is left over from wholesale orders. All Rootstocks cannot be guaranteed at wholesale prices.

Some retail nurseries will custom graft a custom tree for you (any rootstock onto any variety they have), but the price will be higher and the wait will be longer for your custom tree. Of course, if you have the time to go that route you might as well order your own rootstocks and graft your own trees.

I do not nor have I ever worked in the wholesale or retail nursery industry, but this is what I have gleaned from talking to nursery owners about why they do not advertise the rootstock type on their apple tree orders. Usually all that is advertised is that the apple tree variety is "dwarf" (B9, M7) or "semi-dwarf" (M106, MM111, B118), and there is no guarantee of the actual rootstock used. Sometimes if you badger the nursery they can tell you their best guess if they look at the actual tree they are selling you. The trees they are often color-coded as to rootstock type.

Therefore if you absolutely REQUIRE your apple tree on a known rootstock due to environment or climate, graft your own.
This could explain Stark’s new policy. I understand it would make economic sense for them – but it does not make economic sense for me to just take my chances on what rootstock I get from them.

Personally, I’ll take my business to those nurseries that can tell me what rootstock I am getting, Turkey Creek, St. Lawrence Nursery, and Cummins all come to mind. Stark Bros will do just fine without my business, I’m thinking the others might actually appreciate it.
 
My grandfather was a fan of Stark (decades ago), so I bought from them initially as it was all I knew. My needs have outgrown their offerings, especially at their price points.


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Anyone know what size height and width to expect from a G935 dwarf tree from cummins Nuresery?
 
A standard size apple tree would be approximately 30 feet tall x 30 feet wide. The G935 rootstock grows a tree 35% to 40% of a standard size tree, so it would grow to roughly 12 feet tall x 12. feet wide. This would apply to a tree from Cummins or any other nursery, assuming you know it's a G935 rootstock.
 
Also matters what variety you graft onto it. More vigorous varieties will produce a larger tree while low vigor varieties will be smaller. I tried to arrange my orchard by rootstock and variety vigor so that taller trees were on the north side. Not perfect because I couldn't find the info for everything I planted.

This link has relative vigor many apple varieties http://www.homeorchardsociety.org/growfruit/apples/estimated-tree-vigor-for-apple-varieties/
 
^^^^ Thanks for that link. Good info.
 
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