Stratifying Chestnuts in the Fridge

[yoderjac]

Any concerns with putting some directly in the ground now? Was thinking I'd try it at my dad's property in IL this weekend. I'll also use the grow tubes that I got from Chestnut Hill when I purchased 2 trees a couple years back.

Jayber,

You really need to make a decision here. One way to go is root pruning containers and another is direct seeding. With the root pruning approach, you need a system of containers. I've had trees survive planting them directly from 18s but not really thrive like those that go through a series of containers. This thread shows how a chestnut can thrive when it goes through the series of containers: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...h-rootmakers-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5556/. From your picture you may be too late for 18s. They come in trays. The regular tray has 18 fixed cells. The Express Trays support individual cells to keep them elevated. If you buy them retail, they come with the cells. Your tap root may already be too large for 18s.

The idea of root pruning containers is to prune the tap root to cause up stream secondary and tertiary branching. Most of that branching occurs in the first 4 inches above the prune. Containers are sized to force branching in the last 4" or so after each transplant. The idea is to have a dense fibrous root system with many terminal roots that is efficient at water and nutrient uptake verses a long tap root and slow branching. It is a tradeoff.

If you want to direct seed, first you need to make sure your tap root has not j-hooked or circled. That can cause problems in the tree down the road. The other issue might be the weather. Once top growth starts, you need to make sure you don't have a freeze. Direct seeding will give you a long natural tap root that will sacrifice early growth for some level of surety that the tree will have access to ground water during time of little rain until it is established.

I don't doubt that some have had better success planting directly from 18s, but that may be due to differences in soil quality and the availability of supplemental water.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Jayber]

If you want to direct seed, first you need to make sure your tap root has not j-hooked or circled.

What if it has, can it be corrected or clipped?


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[yoderjac]

What if it has, can it be corrected or clipped?


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If it is supple enough that you can straighten it out when planting it, do so. Keep in mind that chestnut tap roots grow fast if not pruned. If it is too badly circled or j-hooked, the only option is to prune it by hand or cull the seedling. If you prune it by hand, you will be planting it with a very tiny root system and no tap root so chances are poor. If you need to prune the tap root, I would prune it enough you can fit it into an 18 and then use a root pruning container system for 1 season before planting the tree in the fall. If you don't want to go to the expense of buying root pruning containers, I'd just plant the ones that don't have the issue and cull the rest.

The problem with planting a tree with a circling or j-hooking tap root is that they may do just fine for a number of years, but eventually as root gets larger, the tap root constricts itself and doesn't efficiently transfer water and nutrients. This doesn't mean the tree will have zero value for you, but your risk putting a lot of time and effort into a tree that has a much higher chance of having issues down the road.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Jayber]

I order some 18's yesterday, on their way.
So I unerstand the normal process for 18's, you clip the tap root prior to putting them in the containers? That will spawn the root growth above that level......leave them in the RMs for ~12 weeks and move to a bigger container or into the ground??

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[yoderjac]

I order some 18's yesterday, on their way.
So I unerstand the normal process for 18's, you clip the tap root prior to putting them in the containers? That will spawn the root growth above that level......leave them in the RMs for ~12 weeks and move to a bigger container or into the ground??

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Jayber,

The normal process with chestnuts and 18s is to either plant the chestnut in the 18 with a professional mix (Promix, Fafard, etc) after cold stratification and just before or just after a root radicle begins to emerge from the nut. The root radicle grows in the 18 and is forced by the design of the container into one of the holes at the bottom. The tray should be placed on a wire rack to improve air flow below the 18s if possible. When the root radicle comes in contact with the air, the tip desiccates which prunes the tip of the root. With this kind of pruning, the tip is sealed with no chance of any pathogens entering like with a manual cut. Once the root tip is air pruned, it forces up stream secondary and tertiary branching. The container design then forces these roots down into holes which prunes them repeating the process. In about 12 to 16 weeks, the containers will become hard to water. This is because a good professional mix will be very well drained and has lots of voids when you first start. Over time all those tiny roots will fill the voids making it take much longer for water to fully infiltrate the container. At that time, you will have achieved all the branching that container can force. You then transplant into the next larger container. I like to use 1 gal RB2s for the second stage, but there are other options. When you transplant, the entire root ball with medium will come out of the 18 intact. You plant that in the second stage air pruning container. It should be no larger than 4" beyond all three sides of that root ball. The process repeats.

I have the best success using 3 stages. You can see pictures on the link I put in the previous post. By late spring or early summer, I transplant them from the 1 gal Rootbulder 2 containers to 3 gal RB2s. By fall, I'll I a nice size tree for planting.

In your particular case looking at the pics, I'm guessing the tap root will be too long to fit into the 18s. I would manually clip the tap root so it fits. There is a small chance of some pathogen entering the cut, but that is always the case when we manually prune anything. I would not sweat it. The response to your manual prune will be the same as to air pruning the tap root, it will force lateral branching. The 18 should take care of the rest and you should be on the same track as if you started by planting in an 18.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Jayber]

Awesome, thanks a million for breaking it all down for me. My 18s can't get here soon enough!! I guess I'll need to find some Promix, Fafard, etc that you referred to. The search begins....

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[TreeDaddy]

a local tru-value hardware store can get promix bx and save you the massive shipping cost

or mix your own with peat/perlite/vermiculite at 1/1/1. all can be found at home depot

bill

 

[Jayber]

a local tru-value hardware store can get promix bx and save you the massive shipping cost

or mix your own with peat/perlite/vermiculite at 1/1/1. all can be found at home depot

bill

Found the p/p/v at Home Depot......nothing needed for added nutrients?

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[yoderjac]

Osmocote Plus or Osmocote and Micromax will get added to the cell once top growth begins. No need to waste fertilizer on trees that don't grow. The energy from the nut is used for the first flush of leaves. DON'T use regular fertilizer. If you add Osmocote when top growth begins, it will be released slowly and be available when the seedling needs it in the second flush. I mix Osmocote in with my mix for larger containers. I like 1 part promix (or equivalent), one part mini-pine-bark nuggets (from Lowes), and two capfuls of Osmocote Plus.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[cavey]

I came across this supplier of pots, they have some pretty cool stuff as far as pots for planting trees. They have air pruning and regular pots and a ton of stuff for starting cuttings and a bunch of deep pots which would really have been nice for growing the chestnuts in house. Price is good till you look at shipping to the Midwest - for me, but someone on here may be a bit closer.

again, I'm not endorsing them,... they are just one of the first and only places I've seen with a large selection of deep pots for growing trees at decent prices. Take a look, they have some 30" deep pots,... no more tap root issues!! lol.
I would love to try one and use a post hole digger just to see how it works out.


http://www.stuewe.com/
Stuewe & Sons, Inc.

Oregon

 

[yoderjac]

I came across this supplier of pots, they have some pretty cool stuff as far as pots for planting trees. They have air pruning and regular pots and a ton of stuff for starting cuttings and a bunch of deep pots which would really have been nice for growing the chestnuts in house. Price is good till you look at shipping to the Midwest - for me, but someone on here may be a bit closer.

again, I'm not endorsing them,... they are just one of the first and only places I've seen with a large selection of deep pots for growing trees at decent prices. Take a look, they have some 30" deep pots,... no more tap root issues!! lol.
I would love to try one and use a post hole digger just to see how it works out.


http://www.stuewe.com/
Stuewe & Sons, Inc.

Oregon

Yep, there were a few folks using Stuewe Pots reporting on the old forum.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Found the p/p/v at Home Depot......nothing needed for added nutrients?

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jayber,

Everything I know about chestnuts,I learned from Jack,Wayne Pruett, and matt patterson

Wayne and jack post on deer hunter forum as well as here

I am in my sophomore season with chestnuts from seed and have enjoyed success using their methods

My only advice is to be forwarned: the addiction is absolute

bill

 

[cavey]

My first "release" of Dunstan Chestnuts back into the wild.... planted 15 of 85 trees I have under grow lights, these were still in solo cups, others I have transplanted up into larger pots. The photo doesn't do them justice they are not that yellow, but I know they are a bit held back in the cups so this first batch is going in the soil now - I don't have enough larger pots to keep up potting the 85 or so plants I have.

The wrap is just a quick cheap way to protect the trucks in the short term, I will window screen them once they are taller...their going into 85 grow tubes I got free with which I will gradually lift up and keep on just for browse protection. Not a firm believer in tubes / mice houses but they will need protection from the deer and I dont have enough fencing.

So fingers crossed that they will make it up here... 70 more to plant :-)

 

[H20fwler]

I have a dozen of these planted behind my road screen of Norway's and pines...they are around two and a half feet tall now.

 

[yoderjac]

Nice!

 

[IkemanTx]

Okay this may be a long shot, but I had an interesting idea today.

My sister and brother in law gave me some cigars for an early Christmas present and in the bag was a packet that is a two way humidity control device. After further investigation, they make them in a number of humidity percentages and sizes for numerous applications.

What struck me was that they are apparently quite precise over a variety of temperatures. One of the biggest problems guys and gals have with high carb seeds like chestnuts is mold from too high of humidity. If we could figure out precisely how much humidity was needed for stratification to occur, but not enough to promote mold growth.... you could start with completely dry spagnum moss and throw one or two of the larger packets of the correct humidity percentage and avoid all the mold losses....... if they don’t make the proper percentage for our purposes there could be enough demand in the horticulture world to warrant custom batches.

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[yoderjac]

It has been a while since I dug into this, but if I recall correctly, the ideal level is 65%. I think this was moisture content, not RH. I'm sure you can find the conversion for 34 degrees if these are calibrated in RH. The article was talking about cold stratification. If moisture level drops below a certain point, cold stratification slows meaning it takes more days of cold stratification to achieve the same germination rate. If the moisture level drops low enough, cold stratification basically stops and the chestnuts kind of go into suspended animation. I know guys who have been able to keep them in this suspended state for a year and then add moisture and get them to germinate.

I could be remembering wrong, but I think it was 65%.

If you get this working, you'll need to share the info on those packets so we can figure out where to get them.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[IkemanTx]

It has been a while since I dug into this, but if I recall correctly, the ideal level is 65%. I think this was moisture content, not RH. I'm sure you can find the conversion for 34 degrees if these are calibrated in RH. The article was talking about cold stratification. If moisture level drops below a certain point, cold stratification slows meaning it takes more days of cold stratification to achieve the same germination rate. If the moisture level drops low enough, cold stratification basically stops and the chestnuts kind of go into suspended animation. I know guys who have been able to keep them in this suspended state for a year and then add moisture and get them to germinate.

I could be remembering wrong, but I think it was 65%.

Thanks,

Jack

If that is the case, a large pack of their 69% would have enough humidity. And I bet it wouldn’t be near enough to allow mold to grow, since nothing starts truly wet this way in the first place.


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[yoderjac]

I can not tell from the packing what the 69% refers to. Is that absolute humidity, relative humidity, or moisture content? I also can't recall what the 65% number I once found referred to for chestnuts. I think it referred to moisture content, not humidity. I think you would need to understand what units your moisture control packs were measuring. Chestnuts are considered recalcitrant. Take a look at this article: https://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpg018.pdf/$file/fcpg018.pdf

In general, they are talking about storing seed. For recalcitrant seed like chestnuts they say below 40% moisture content they will die. This document also has a nice inset that describes how to measure moisture content. The 40% death number they state leads credence to the 65% optimal number for cold stratification. That would mean that the 65% number that I remember was likely referring to moisture content not absolute or relative humidity of the air in the bag.

I've usually started my chestnuts by now, but this year, I'll be out of town for the first week of Jan. I decided to wait until I come back to start them so I don't have to find someone to water them when I'm gone.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[IkemanTx]

Their website states it is a measure of relative humidity.


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