Starting Apples from Seed Indoors - How To

[yoderjac]

Jack,

This seems counter intuitive

How is artificial light preferable over natural sunlight ? What is the theory and reasoning? Evidence?

bill

Bill,

Artificial light is not preferable over natural sunlight. Sufficient light intensity is preferable over insufficient light intensity. In the winter months the sun is low in the sky and goes through much more atmosphere and is further away. The intensity is reduced significantly. Dr. Whitcomb mentions this in one of his papers. Keep in mind we are bending nature when we start tree seedlings indoors. Plants use different parts of the light spectrum at different times of growth. The sun provides full spectrum light. This is why if you buy high-end plant lights they come with a spectrogram.

I did some research and played around with different lights. I found that tree seedlings are spending such a short portion of their life indoors that the spectrum is really not a first (or even second) order factor in seedling development. I use inexpensive shop lights with inexpensive fluorescent bulbs. Just like there are issues trying to start trees in December or January in a greenhouse with only natural light because of the low intensity, if you don't have enough intensity with the artificial light you can have the same problems. Light intensity diminishes with the distance squared. So, I find the least expensive most effective solution to rig inexpensive shop lights that are cool on ropes or chains so they can be adjusted as the trees grow to keep them close.

Everything I've read in Dr. Whitcombs papers has proven true with my hands-on experience. This was one I hadn't tested. Then I saw a thread on the old forum. A guy was starting pawpaw trees in a greenhouse in the winter with only natural light in rootmaker 18s. I happened to be doing the same thing indoors under lights. While his trees looked OK above ground, the root systems were weak as Whitcomb suggested. There are pictures on the thread I linked. At the same time, my pawpaws were flourishing under lights.

As for the benefits of starting them early, I don't agree that the advantages are negligible, but it may depend on your location. In my area, with my soils, I get a big benefit. I've tried direct seeding, planting directly from 18s, and planting from 1 gal and 3 gal RB2s after one season in containers. Planting from 3 gal wins hands down. My thread on maximizing growth with rootmakers (http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...th-rootmakers-transfered-from-old-forum.5556/) shows going from a nut to a 6' tall 3/4" seedling in 10 months. My direct seeded trees are lucky to be a foot tall at the end of the first growing season. Someone with rich fertile soil or who can baby trees in the field may do much better than me with direct seeding. So far, in my area, direct seeded trees are not catching up.

So in my case, it is definitely a cabin fever relief project but the benefits are much greater than direct seeding. If they were not, I'd be doing other things with my time in the winter months.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Neahawg]

Bill,

Artificial light is not preferable over natural sunlight. Sufficient light intensity is preferable over insufficient light intensity. In the winter months the sun is low in the sky and goes through much more atmosphere and is further away. The intensity is reduced significantly. Dr. Whitcomb mentions this in one of his papers. Keep in mind we are bending nature when we start tree seedlings indoors. Plants use different parts of the light spectrum at different times of growth. The sun provides full spectrum light. This is why if you buy high-end plant lights they come with a spectrogram.

I did some research and played around with different lights. I found that tree seedlings are spending such a short portion of their life indoors that the spectrum is really not a first (or even second) order factor in seedling development. I use inexpensive shop lights with inexpensive fluorescent bulbs. Just like there are issues trying to start trees in December or January in a greenhouse with only natural light because of the low intensity, if you don't have enough intensity with the artificial light you can have the same problems. Light intensity diminishes with the distance squared. So, I find the least expensive most effective solution to rig inexpensive shop lights that are cool on ropes or chains so they can be adjusted as the trees grow to keep them close.

Everything I've read in Dr. Whitcombs papers has proven true with my hands-on experience. This was one I hadn't tested. Then I saw a thread on the old forum. A guy was starting pawpaw trees in a greenhouse in the winter with only natural light in rootmaker 18s. I happened to be doing the same thing indoors under lights. While his trees looked OK above ground, the root systems were weak as Whitcomb suggested. There are pictures on the thread I linked. At the same time, my pawpaws were flourishing under lights.

As for the benefits of starting them early, I don't agree that the advantages are negligible, but it may depend on your location. In my area, with my soils, I get a big benefit. I've tried direct seeding, planting directly from 18s, and planting from 1 gal and 3 gal RB2s after one season in containers. Planting from 3 gal wins hands down. My thread on maximizing growth with rootmakers (http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...th-rootmakers-transfered-from-old-forum.5556/) shows going from a nut to a 6' tall 3/4" seedling in 10 months. My direct seeded trees are lucky to be a foot tall at the end of the first growing season. Someone with rich fertile soil or who can baby trees in the field may do much better than me with direct seeding. So far, in my area, direct seeded trees are not catching up.

So in my case, it is definitely a cabin fever relief project but the benefits are much greater than direct seeding. If they were not, I'd be doing other things with my time in the winter months.

Thanks,

Jack

I agree growing in pots at home gets you better growth I just don't start mine indoors. I cold stratify til I see radicle emerging then move to pots and place outside. It's a little annoying moving between garage and outdoors when temps drop below freezing but I think it's easier than growing indoors. I think everyone has a preference.

 

[yoderjac]

I agree growing in pots at home gets you better growth I just don't start mine indoors. I cold stratify til I see radicle emerging then move to pots and place outside. It's a little annoying moving between garage and outdoors when temps drop below freezing but I think it's easier than growing indoors. I think everyone has a preference.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Location play a role as well as your facilities. MattPat has demonstrated great chestnut growth in one season with no indoor head start using root pruning containers. He lives in Tx in an area with a much longer growing season than I do. He has little indoor space and plenty of outdoor space.

As for acclimating trees to the outdoors, I'm going to make some changes this year. In previous years I timed my trees so transplant from RM 18s to 1 gal RB2s coincided with our last threat of frost. I would move the trees out immediately after the last threat of frost and gradually change their location to get more direct sun so they didn't burn. I noticed some stalling of trees this way. I think that even though the temps did not get to freezing, the cool spring nights caused them to stall until things warmed up.

This year, I'm starting some a bit earlier. I will transplant from 18s to 1 gals a bit earlier but only keep enough trees that I can keep under lights indoors. I plan to keep them indoors under lights for an extra month. I'm guessing that the advantages of natural sunlight are offset by the cool night time temps. I'll still go through the same sun acclimation process.

I always had too many trees to move them back and forth from inside to outside, so I always waited until the threat of frost had passed. I plan to wait even longer this year. We will see if that is advantageous or not.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Neahawg]

This tree made well over 6 feet to nearly 7 feet in one growing season, it was planted mid Aug. So it would have sprouted about early to mid April and grew to this height by 5-5.5 months.

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[yoderjac]

This tree made well over 6 feet to nearly 7 feet in one growing season, it was planted mid Aug. So it would have sprouted about early to mid April and grew to this height by 5-5.5 months.

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That is outstanding! I wish my soils could support that kind of growth. Did you provide supplemental water and care? Once trees are planted on my farm, they don't get any special care due to volume and time. Direct seeded chestnuts don't seem to thrive in my heavy clay. I can't judge the caliper from that picture, but if it is close to 3/4" you must have very good conditions. They must rival the conditions I create with medium on my deck where they get fertilizer and water whenever needed.

Great Work!

Jack

 

[Neahawg]

I don't direct seed exactly. I grow them like a direct seeded chestnut but in a root maker pot. If temps fall to freezing or below I bring them inside if they are above freezing they stay outside. They get all the root growth they can and eventually sprout between early and late April. Then I continue to grow at ho til planted out in the fall.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't direct seed exactly. I grow them like a direct seeded chestnut but in a root maker pot. If temps fall to freezing or below I bring them inside if they are above freezing they stay outside. They get all the root growth they can and eventually sprout between early and late April. Then I continue to grow at ho til planted out in the fall.

Very interesting method! I'm getting a better picture of it. You must get the temps right. Impressive tree!

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I don't direct seed exactly. I grow them like a direct seeded chestnut but in a root maker pot. If temps fall to freezing or below I bring them inside if they are above freezing they stay outside. They get all the root growth they can and eventually sprout between early and late April. Then I continue to grow at ho til planted out in the fall.

I have a cold room where I overwinter trees. I'm thinking about perhaps trying some variation of your method for side by side comparison. I've got a few questions. Do you start them in an 18 or do you start them in a larger RM and sacrifice the early root branching? Your method seems similar to the way DCO are vernalized but with cold stratification ahead. When you bring them inside, what temperature is it inside?

I'm trying to think through your method and how it works. Any root development that takes place must use the energy stored in the nut, so there is probably a limit to how much of a head start they can get before top growth begins and the sun can provide energy. Also, did you measure or do you have an estimate of the caliper of the tree in the picture?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Neahawg]

My biggest trees at the base are probably about as big around as my thumb if I had to guess though that is a estimate as I've never actually measured.

This past year I started in 18s which was nice since I was able to move a large amount of seedlings all at once. Though it is much harder it seems to control water levels in 18s. The year before I went straight to bigger pots I got the same height but not as much root development.

When I bring them inside during freezing temps its only into my unheated garage. I put them closest to the house which typically stays a little above freezing but not so much that they sprout prematurely.

Then eventually I come to a point where it stays above freezing and nature takes over.

 

[yoderjac]

That is what I would expect. 18s need constant water attention. I've got a temperature sensor in my cold room and control temp with a window. There is no artificial light in there, just a small window. It would be analogous to you moving containers in and out of the unheated garage since we are in similar zones. With the larger containers you miss the early root pruning in those first 4" which Whitcomb says is important.

When I assess growth I use a combination of height, caliper, leaf mass, and root development. If I get the timing right, they all seem to have the same root development and fill a 3 gal RB2 by fall. I have some trees that branch early taking more of the Chinese form that have more caliper and leaf mass but less height. Others take more of the American form and are tall whips with more height but less caliper and leaf mass. I notice the tree in the picture is staked. Before you staked it, did it stand on its own when you planted it in the fall?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Neahawg]

It did stand alone but all my tree normally require some form of early staking. I have trouble with chestnuts growing to tall to fast. What has worked for me is very thin dow rod as it and the tree flex in the wind. This tree may have been fine without the stake but I felt it needed at least one more year of support.

Most of my trees are good to go by fall but this particular tree is Chinese so not sure if that was part of the problem or not.

 

[Reagan]

I'm a soooo happy we finally have an apple expert on this site!

Thanks professor Yoder.


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[yoderjac]

I'm a soooo happy we finally have an apple expert on this site!

Thanks professor Yoder.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No expert here, especially with apples. I do have some experience with chestnuts, but there are plenty of others with just as much. I'm just passing on my experiences and learning from the experiences of others. If you look and the previous few posts, you'll see my conversation with Neahawg is an attempt to learn from some of his successful methods.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I added a few Albemarle Pippin and Jonathan seedlings to batch today.

 

[yoderjac]

Latest picture of Wickson seedlings:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

I picked some apples from a farmers tree, extracted & cleaned seeds, then stored over winter in a jar in the freezer.

Took them out and stored in a damp paper towel in a zip lock for 60 days in the frig.

Planted in peat seed stater in a moist enclosed seed starter under a grow light.

After 30 days nothing has germinated.

What am i doing wrong and what is normal germination time?

 

[yoderjac]

I picked some apples from a farmers tree, extracted & cleaned seeds, then stored over winter in a jar in the freezer.

Took them out and stored in a damp paper towel in a zip lock for 60 days in the frig.

Planted in peat seed stater in a moist enclosed seed starter under a grow light.

After 30 days nothing has germinated.

What am i doing wrong and what is normal germination time?

Apple seeds don't need cold stratification to germinate. I've not seen anyone storing them in the freezer. Depending on temps in your freezer that could be the issue. I understand that if they have a short period in the fridge (say 30 days) germination rates are higher. I don't think longer periods in the fridge would hurt them as long as they don't get moldy. I can tell you what worked well for me:

I collected mine fresh from the apples and washed them off and soaked them in water to ensure they were fully hydrated. Next, I took some damp long fiber sphagnum and squeezed out every drop of moisture I could. For things like chestnuts you need higher moisture for cold stratification. Here, I just wanted to hold enough moisture in the bag so they would not dry out. I put mine in the fridge for about 30 days and then planted them. If you go back in this thread you can look at dates more precisely. I expect if I had kept them in those bags for 60 days I would have had the same results.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[emetzger]

Yoder,
Great info here. 2 years ago I started some apple and crab apple seed in root maker trays and transferred them to 1 gallon root builders that same year. Last year I grated some scion wood on the two rootstocks and put them in 7 gallon bags. They really took off and some are about 7 feet. I'm hoping to monitor and see which does better, the apple or crabapple rootstock. It's allot of work but sure fun watching your babys grow from seed. This year I didn't have any rootstock so I ordered about 25 seedling MM111 from Century Farms Orch in NC. Hoping to graft them with different varieties and put them in bigger pots for 2018.

 

[emetzger]

As a side note, I grew some wild pear seed I think in 2013. I had posted it on the old QDMA forum. Well, this is the first year I've seen fruit on those trees. Pretty cool seeing it grow from seed and bear.

 

[yoderjac]

Great pics! The crabs I grew from seed last year, planted in the field and grafted are on this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...g-phase-transfered-from-old-forum.5536/page-5 along with the latest pictures of one of my trays of Wickson seedlings started this winter. I was shocked at how fast they grew.