Seguins - Dwarf Chinese Chestnuts question - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

It has been a while since I updated the picture of the seedling seguins:

The 5 cells in the front center of the pic have the seguins the rest in the background are Allegheny Chinquapins. These seguins are slow growers being outpaced by the Allegheny chinquapins but they seem to be doing well.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

My seeds are en route from Schumacher

I was "0 for 40" in germination my first try

bill

 

[yoderjac]

My seeds are en route from Schumacher

I was "0 for 40" in germination my first try

bill

It wasn't you. I ordered an entire pound from schumacher and none of them germinated last year all had mold. The only reason I had success this year is because my nuts were fresh and I collected them and cared for them myself. I wish you better luck.

Although I was technically 5 for 8 this year, that was only because the nuts were so precious that I planted every nut that even had the slightest chance of being viable. I'm guessing the three that did not germinate were not viable.

I'm looking forward to see how these do as they grow. I'm planning on keeping my 3 Wildlife group seguins in 3 gal rb2s on my deck for the next few years just to collect nuts.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, tonight when I watered I decided that I had one trays worth of ACs that were tall enough that they were starting to fall over. I staked them with safety flags and added another pinch of osmocote before watering. I also did some micro pruning. ACs like to take a bush-like form. I prefer that the energy is directed into the height and caliper rather than to multiple branches. While deer generally don't seem to bother my ACs much and ACs will just as easily produce nuts in bush form, I prefer to start with a single leader as tall as possible with as much caliper as possible at planting time.

I still have two trays of ACs that are not tall enough that they need staked. My seguins are not tall enough to require staking yet either.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Just received my order of seguins from Schumacher

I ordered one pound. 166 seem viable and 11 were floaters

Soaked them for 24 hours . Now in fridge for ~ 60 days

Here we go

bill

 

[Merle Hawggard]

Just received my order of seguins from Schumacher

I ordered one pound. 166 seem viable and 11 were floaters

Soaked them for 24 hours . Now in fridge for ~ 60 days

Here we go

bill

Hope you have better luck with them than I did last year. All I got was an envelope full of moldy chestnuts.
By the sound of the ones you received, they must be doing a better job with them.

Sent from my SM-S903VL using Tapatalk

 

[yoderjac]

Most of mine floated as well last year but none germinated. I found one nut in the bag that was completely white with mold when I received them. I'm sure all the others had been infected but were showing no signs of it when I received them.

Like Merle, I wish you the best of luck with them. Either way let us know how it goes!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is an odd Allegheny Chinquapin.

At first I thought it was some kind of disease but it has been growing quite well. The leaves have a very odd serration and some have really squirrelly tips. I'm now wondering if this is some kind of hybrid. I guess it could simply be a genetic oddity but since anything in the chestnut family can pollenate anything else, I wonder if this nut came from pollen from something else in the chestnut family.

It will be interesting to watch this oddity over time.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

When I went to water the other day, I noticed the leaves on one of my seguins were drooping a bit. This is usually a water issue. I've found that it is difficult to get the water just right in 18s for chestnuts. It is easy for some to dry out much faster than others. I'm not sure why this is the case but it happens. It could be that as the trees grow, it becomes harder to get the spray wand head in and see how much I'm spraying on each. Perhaps some trees just use water faster than others. Perhaps over time more medium fall out of the bottom holes of some cells than other. Who knows.

When I'm growing chestnuts or ACs by the hundreds, I don't worry about this. There are always some losses and I plan for it and cull according. Seguin nuts have been so hard to come by that they are precious and I want zero losses. Even though it is very early, I decided to go ahead and transplant these into 1 gal RB2s. They have had plenty of time for the tap root to air prune, but have not come close to filling the cells. My reason for transplant is simple that watering is much less critical with 1 gal RB2s than 18s.

Here they are:

The seguins are in the first row. The seedlings behind them are apples.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Jack,

Did the sequins in the 18s feel "light" using the weight method you have previously discussed?

Also, Im using Promix HP this year this year for my 18s and i can tell a difference in frequency of watering

bill

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

Did the sequins in the 18s feel "light" using the weight method you have previously discussed?

Also, Im using Promix HP this year this year for my 18s and i can tell a difference in frequency of watering

bill

Bill,

Yes, the one with droopy leaves was light. The real issue is the tight time window and the volume of trees. When I'm dealing with hundreds of chestnuts or ACs, I don't take time to lift and water individually. I will lift several cells in random locations in the trays and kind of mentally average to determine when to water. So, some of the trees are probably watered a little too frequently and some a little too infrequently. 90%+ percent of the trees do very well this way as they are in the middle of the bell shaped curve. I'll lose a few trees each year on either end of the curve...no big deal.

Since I only have 5 seguins, I could pick them up individually and water accordingly. That requires me to check them pretty much daily and with other things going on in my life they can go a few days without being checked. My watering is also influenced by my schedule. If I'm heading to the farm a few days, I may water before I leave even though it may be a bit early because if I wait until I return and something comes up and I don't get back when planned, it could be way too late.

With 1 gal RB2s and indoor conditions, I don't even water once per week, even with actively growing trees. This gives me more flexibility with my schedule. I went back and looked at my records and I planted them in early Jan. In my first year working with rootmakers and chestnuts, the top growth was much faster than I was expecting. I transplanted a bunch at 9 weeks. They did fine in 1 gals. It just wasn't an efficient use of space since they had plenty of room to grown in 18s. With only 5 seguins space is not an issue.

You are right about the mix making a difference in the frequency of watering. I use promix in 18s, but to save money I was using a 50/50 mix of promix and mini pine bark nuggets for my larger containers. Someone in the neighborhood had a tree taken down and the crew chipped all the small stuff. I tool them that if they were looking for a place to dump the chips they could use my back yard. I started using those instead of the pine bark nuggets. When I mowed the grass, I'll put the clippings in the pile and use the FEL on my little tractor to mix it. Over time it composted. I continued using it in the 50/50. I noticed a big difference in water retention as the percentage of chips changed to compost over time.

Here is my sense right now:

Using a very well drained mix like promix (HP is great) is most important in 18s. It works great in larger containers but is expensive and requires frequent watering. I seemed to get the most growth mixing it with the mini pine bark nuggets but found watering had the be more frequent and complete (dunking container in a tub). When I mixed 50/50 with compost, I seemed to get somewhat less (but still good growth). However, I could wait longer between watering. This can be an advantage if you are growing lots of trees and have limited time and a bad back.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thought I'd add a recent picture of the Allegheny Chinquapins. I have plenty of space this year and plenty of trays, so I decimated the cells per tray so each tray is half full.

I have two more trays each half full not in this picture but this picture is pretty much representative.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Time to update this thread with bad news and my path forward. Last year my grafted apple seedlings got some kind of disease. The leaves got very droopy and eventually it killed them. Some did not get it but those that did all died. Whatever the disease was, the Seguins were also susceptible. All of the seguins I purchased from the wildlife group that produced nuts died. All but one of my seedling Seguins got the disease and died.

For some reason, the Wildlife Group is not selling seguins this year. So, I was looking for ways to get some. I had some nuts from my Dunstan trees cold stratifying, so I decided to try to nut graft Seguins to these nuts. I think the chances of success are low, but I like to experiment. So, I started this thread, here and on another forum: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/seguin-chestnut-experiment-and-request.10336/. I kind forum member on another forum sent me some scions from his seguins for this experiment. He was also kind enough to send me 4 seguin nuts that had been cold stratifying as well as 4 Chinese chestnuts.

When I received the nuts, none had root radicles so I put them back in cold storage with some damp long-fiber sphagnum for a week or two. I checked them an done of the Chinese had the beginnings of a root radicle so I figured they were about ready to go so I planted them all in 18s.

I checked them today, and 2 of the Seguins are just popping their heads out! At least a small step in the right direction.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Troubles Trees]

Well, the Sequins final arrived today. They were in a sack. A few were very moldy and there were quite a few floaters, but most looked good. I discarded those with mold and washed each of the rest by hand under running water. I did not use a bleach solution as I've had negative issues with bleach and chestnuts.
Right now they are hydrating....

How did these work out as far as keeping a single central leader as opposed to letting them go multi-stemed for you Jack?

I found this thread at the very top when searching "Dwarf Chinese Chestnut Sequin" online :)

 

[yoderjac]

How did these work out as far as keeping a single central leader as opposed to letting them go multi-stemed for you Jack?

I found this thread at the very top when searching "Dwarf Chinese Chestnut Sequin" online :)

If you are talking about the seeds from Schumacher, they were all moldy and zero germinated. Another poster got seeds from them the following year and they worked out for him. I got none of these trees left.

 

[Troubles Trees]

I prefer to start with a single leader as tall as possible with as much caliper as possible at planting time.

No sir I meant you trying to get a single central leader on your AC's bud.
With the new AC thread I figured I would bump this one also :)

 

[yoderjac]

No sir I meant you trying to get a single central leader on your AC's bud.
With the new AC thread I figured I would bump this one also :)

It did not work well. I don't do any pruning or anything once trees are in the field. They tend to take a more bushy form for me, but that doesn't seem to impact performance.