Question about "wild" seedlings

[Bowsnbucks]

If I were to take seeds from an apple tree that's been growing for 60+ years in proximity to other OLD trees, as well as close to newer apples and crabs - what could be expected from any of those seedlings ?? God knows what kind of cross-pollination has occurred in all those years. The only thing I can say is those trees have been around for years and they still seem relatively healthy and produce nice crops of apples. Not pretty apples, but taste pretty good - tart.

I've never really researched growing apple trees from seed, and I've only raised 2 or 3 seedlings - no fruit from them. Is it a total crap shoot, or might something good come from all the cross-pollination ?

 

[buckvelvet]

It is a crap shoot. Maybe of of those old trees are an old crab that grow true to seed (there are not many varieties that do), or it'll be a brand new variety (99% of the time an apple seed would be), could be bird size crab, 1 inch crab or a 4 inch whopper apple. You just never really know, because of all the pollination factors you don't know what the parents are for sure.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm experimenting with growing apples from seed: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/starting-apples-from-seed-indoors-how-to.6613/

I'm only a couple years in. Basically, if you don't control the crossing, it really is a crap shoot. However, most named apples have been bred and crossbred for specific sets of characteristics. Then, they are propagated asexually through grafting. These "genetically locked" trees are then concentrated in orchards. In the game of genetic oneupsmanship, this advantages disease and predators as they are generally not genetically locked. What better situation could you have for disease evolution/adaptation than a high concentration of genetically identical trees.

Since deer are fairly tolerant of apple characteristics, to me, genetic diversity is more important in a low maintenance wildlife tree than specific characteristics. Since it really is a total crap shoot, I decided to try to cut the baby in half.

First, I started a lot of apples from seed. My primary target was a crab apple called Wickson but in the first year I also used dolgo and siberian red. While no apples are really true to seed, some say crabapples are truer to seed than domestic apples. Then for kicks, I used seeds from several diploid and triploid varieties including suncrip, winesap, albermarle Pipin, johnathan, and perhaps a few more I can't think of right now.

I started by planting seedlings in the field in the fall of the same year they were started. I tried grafting them the following spring leaving a few nurse branches. I'm a novice at grafting apples and my success was poor but some took. In most cases, this young root stock was probably not well enough established for grafting and the trees wanted to push energy in the nurse branches rather than the grafts. I knew this would be a challange.

The result is that the ones that took have lower branches from the original seedling and the upper branches are from some known named apple whose characteristics I want for deer. My plan is to watch those lower branches and see what they produce. If I get a good apples (from a wildlife perspective), I'll use those branches for scions for grafting. Any tree I genetically "lock" from these will me recent and small enough in number as not to suffer from the lock like the named apples that have been locked and propagated for many generations.

While I did have one seedling that produced small apples in the first year (didn't graft that one and it has not produced since), none of the other trees have produced apples yet.

In the second year, I started many more trees from seed. I tried to graft these in their first spring still in containers. They will not have have lower branches from the original tree but the rootstock will not be clonal. Perhaps over time, I'll get branches below the graft. I tried to graft relatively high. Again, only a handful of these grafts took. I planted those trees in the field last fall.

I tried my hands at budding those that did not take but I got hit with powdery mildew last summer and only one of the t-buds succeeded. I'm now regrafting all of those trees with named varieties.

Just to hedge my bets, I'm also grafting a few known varieties to M111 (fit for my soils).

Time will tell how this approach works, but I'm having fun. This has been a synopsis of the thread I linked above. It has pictures and much more info.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Apple Junkie]

I love your idea Bows. But, it’s a lot like buying a Lotto ticket, except it takes a lot longer to see if you have a winner.

I have a “wild” apple tree that just grew up where the previous owner dumped the scrubs. It is now a decent tree that bears heavy every other year or so, and I’d never cut it down. So, wild volunteers can be very productive

However, about 10 years ago, I did exactly what you’re proposing. I collected seeds from a nice wild crab thinking I’d get something similar. I stored them all winter, planted them indoors in early spring, and had a decent percent sprout – probably 20 of 24. All summer I watched them progress, and some clearly did much better than others, with one seedling being much superior to all the rest. By fall, I could see there were only 6 that really held any promise of making it over the long run, including "Mr. Big". I planted all of them to bigger pots and by the end of the following summer, only half of them showed any vigor whatsoever, so I planted these three trees to the “orchard”, with good protection. "Mr. Big" is the only one that did anything at all…and frankly, it was only a relative success because the other two only barely held on. It’s been 10 years now and "Mr. Big" is still alive – and I can look over the top of it! So much for that experiment. These days, I browse Cummins, ANC, and STN for proven winners instead.

So, like playing the Lottery, do it for fun. Ya never know, you may grow the next Franklin, and we’ll all be begging for scions!! Go for it bows, it’s something to do – heck, I never win at lotto either, so don’t let my experience deter you!

 

[buckvelvet]

Frankly, Franklin......

I see what your doing @Apple Junkie ......sorry everyone we're sold out......

https://shop.cumminsnursery.com/shop/apple-trees/franklin

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Apple Junkie - It's funny you said you can still see over the top of "Mr. Big". The couple seedlings I DID grow and planted at camp ........... are the same way !!! They are still short and stunted. So they're getting yanked this spring and proven, grafted trees will take their place. 3 failed seedlings get the boot, which makes more room to plant good stuff.

I won't try it I guess - we need proven trees for faster production. Our youngest member is in his 40's - most 50 and older. It was just a curious thought as to what kind of tree might come of our older, wildly cross-pollinated apple trees. It might be a project for one of my sons to take on ( prob. with Dad's help ) !! THEY could have future benefits.

Thanks guys !! Still open for more thoughts and discussion if any of you are inclined to post.

 

[Apple Junkie]

Awwww.... I did not mean to rain on your parade Bows. Personally, I'm waiting for professor yoderjac to figure this out, then I'll copy whatever he does.

I agree BV, Cummins is pretty picked over by this time for any Semi-standard tree, not just the Franklins. I was thinking Bows might strike it rich growing a tree from seed with all the traits we look for in a wildlife tree.... but if it takes 60 years to find out, I know I will be WITH the roostocks, not selecting them.

 

[buckvelvet]

If Frankenstein grew a Franklin, frankly they it'd make quite a pair of 'Franklins'

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Apple Junkie - It's funny you said you can still see over the top of "Mr. Big". The couple seedlings I DID grow and planted at camp ........... are the same way !!! They are still short and stunted. So they're getting yanked this spring and proven, grafted trees will take their place. 3 failed seedlings get the boot, which makes more room to plant good stuff.

I won't try it I guess - we need proven trees for faster production. Our youngest member is in his 40's - most 50 and older. It was just a curious thought as to what kind of tree might come of our older, wildly cross-pollinated apple trees. It might be a project for one of my sons to take on ( prob. with Dad's help ) !! THEY could have future benefits.

Thanks guys !! Still open for more thoughts and discussion if any of you are inclined to post.

I have some wild crabapples at my place that appear to be wild seedlings and they produce some massive crops. One tree drops in late October, one in November and one is still holding a ton of crabapples that are dropping daily. It's entirely possible that there were 1000 wild seedlings growing there over the years and these 3 were the only ones strong enough to make it in the wild. But seedlings definitely can be productive.

A few years ago before I knew any better I saved the seeds from store bought apples and planted them. Most grew and I planted the majority of them in random spots on my hunting property for the deer. I saved the best grower and planted it in my backyard and it grew like crazy. It was easily 10 feet in 3 years and it started producing fruit that year. Unfortunately the fruit was a quarter sized crabapple, which was not what I wanted in my backyard but definitely something I wish I had on my property for the deer. If you are just looking for apple or crabapple trees for the deer, you really have nothing to lose (other than a hour or two of labor) by planting a bunch of apple seeds to see what grows. You might be pleasantly surprised by the growth of a few of them and if not you aren't out anything.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I suppose I can try it. We'd have to fence in a little spot at camp and plant the seedlings to see what grows. We have enough room in food plots to do that in a corner of one.

Apple Junkie - You didn't rain on my parade at all. I won't go to great lengths - I'll just plant some and wait & see. If I get a 1" crab, that's OK. I'm just bummed the ones I DID plant didn't want to grow. They just stayed short and spindly. ( Not for lack of care !! ) I'd have been happy to have them grow tall and make some kind of crab. Those 3 had their chance. Their replacements are Goldrush, Priscilla, and Chestnut crab. I have a Trailman crab coming too, that will be planted in one of the spots for archery purposes.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I've had better luck with planting apple seeds by babying them in a pot at home for a summer before transplanting them at their final destination that fall. They have a tough time competing against weeds, so if you just planted seeds in the ground they would struggle even in a fenced area without a lot of weeding and watering.

With seedlings it seems like it's a numbers game. I put a pile of seeds in a wet paper towel to germinate and then plant at least 4 seeds per pot. Periodically thin out the weakest one and after a couple months you'll be down to the strongest grower in each pot. Then later you can pick the best few pots and plant them in the wild. Or if you have room plant them all.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Ben ^^^^ - That's what I'll do. Start in pots before planting in a nursery location that's fenced in.

 

[sandbur]

There are some great seedlings for deer apples. Fun to try and well worth it if you are younger. I just mailed DrDirt Nap some scion that I collected Tuesday and I had to shake the tree to get the rest of the crabs off of it.

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[Ben.MN/WI]

Art - Is now the time to cut scions and store them in the fridge for future grafting? I've decided to give grafting a shot this spring, but I'm not exactly sure when to cut the scions. Thanks-

 

[yoderjac]

I don't think there is any better place to keep scions fresh than on the tree. The need to be taken before the break dormancy, but if I'm using them locally, I leave the on the tree as long as possible unless i'm ready to use them. This minimized the amount of time they are in the crisper where they can either dry out or get mold depending on the moisture level.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

My seedling trees will likely arrive in mid-April, about the time my scion source trees will likely wake up. Can I just wait and just cut the scions the same day I graft them? Does it hurt if growth starts on the scion source?

 

[yoderjac]

My seedling trees will likely arrive in mid-April, about the time my scion source trees will likely wake up. Can I just wait and just cut the scions the same day I graft them? Does it hurt if growth starts on the scion source?

You want the scions to be dormant for spring grafting. I would take scions before they break dormancy and put them in a ziplock bag with slight moisture in your crisper. My point was simply taking them too early allows for more time for issues to crop up in storage. You definitely want to take them before they break dormancy.

Do you really mean "seedling trees"? I grew some apples from seed and am grafting them but that is the exception. Most folks graft to clonal rootstock.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I ordered a batch of seedling red splendor crabapples for grouse, but I don't need all 25. So my plan is to plant half as they are and try grafting half. I've planted those seedlings before and they are strong growers, so I'm hoping they would make a suitable rootstock.

 

[yoderjac]

I ordered a batch of seedling red splendor crabapples for grouse, but I don't need all 25. So my plan is to plant half as they are and try grafting half. I've planted those seedlings before and they are strong growers, so I'm hoping they would make a suitable rootstock.

That makes sense. Be sure to report back as to how things go. I'm about 3 years deep working with seedlings but I hedged my bets by grafting some to M111. It will probably take a number of years until I find out if this was worth it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sandbur]

Stu told me to start collecting scion about mid-Feb in our climate. I have had problems with storage as our one fridge always has fruit in it.

This year I waxed the ends of the scion and vacuum packed some for the fridge. The rest is in a foam cooler and currently in the house with ice overnight as it is -5 outside.

Yep, storage is a problem.


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