Is alfalfa worth it?

[Bowman]

J-bird, alfalfa should not be overseeded after the first year because of autotoxicity. Supposedly thin spots can be reseeded within the first year. I planted this year, the plot was thin and I did overseed again. Did get some new germination, but still to thin. Here is some info: http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq14355

A question to those with more knowledge. Can anyone explain to me how a plant develops or acquires autoxicity? That trait seems counter-productive to me.

 

[Smallplot]

[QUOTE="Can anyone explain to me how a plant develops or acquires autoxicity? That trait seems counter-productive to me.[/QUOTE]


It is natures way of keeping the plantings from getting too thick. With every plant there are a specific number of plants per square foot to reach max growth, and the phenomena lets the plants tune themselves into being the most efficient for that given space.

 

[Bowman]

Thanks.
I planted a mix of
Alfalfa 55%
Sainfoin 20%
Trefoil 20%
Chicory 5%
5/27/17 and reseeded 8/27/17 as it was thin later.
December 2015 soil test, ph 5.8. OM 2.0 CEC 3.6
July 2017, soil test ph 4.8. OM 2.5 CEC 2.
Retest. August 2017, soil test ph 5.4. OM 4.8. CEC 6.

I have no explanation for the results of tests. Limed to recommendation in 2016, ph went down. Limed in August 2017, only got half down because of rain.
Observation from notes:
Best coverage ever, Early deer attraction, Looked good, then bad, then good again.
I did not put out an exclusion cage. I am guessing that it got browsed hard as last year rape and oats got wiped out. Since there is bare ground, I am planning on overseeding the same mix since it will be inside the first year of alfalfa planting. I am open to suggestions.

I have read that sainfoin and trefoil take time to establish. I do have trefoil growing nowhere near where it was planted. I am guessing that turkey and birds have deposited those seeds.

 

[Smallplot]

Soil tests should be done at the same times of the year for consistent results. Also lime will take several years to work, this is why most farmers will take tests every several of years.




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[Bowman]

Understood. Still "strange" to me that after liming in 2016 ph went down. Last test was done because previous showed a big drop in ph.
Still trying to establish sainfoin.
Any other thoughts?

 

[Smallplot]

Understood. Still "strange" to me that after liming in 2016 ph went down. Last test was done because previous showed a big drop in ph.
Still trying to establish sainfoin.
Any other thoughts?

Not real strange for the drop, that could be attributed to many factors. For instance just how the samples were taken, location the samples were taken from within the plot, inconsistent spread pattern and blind luck (if I can call it that). Also could be issues from the lab or even different labs using different types of tests. What I did notice was your CEC which relates to sandy types of soils with small amounts of holding capacity (CEC X 10 roughly equals your soils holding capacity). Depending on the size of lime particles the applied lime could be leaching down further into your soil profile. (Just another possibility).

As far as the sainfoin it appears to be pretty picky and from those who have tried it before did not real good luck. Some came in fine and majority did not. Personally I have never planted this so I am not able to give significant advise above what I recall others saying. Just know it needs to be incorporated for best results to about 1/4 inch and ideal planting times are fall or very early spring.


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[Bowman]

Tell me more about CEC. The last test showed a relative increase. Same thing for OM.

 

[Smallplot]

CEC or Cation exchange capacity is a relative measurement showing how many negative ions are in your soil and thus how many positive ions they can attract in a quick down and dirty explanation. This we can see the relative amount any particular soil will hold. If the numbers are high enough, we can apply all the nutrients at one time. With a very low CEC, we may need to spoon feed nutrients (multiple applications) to have nutrients available across the growing season.

CEC can also be a quick determination of your type of soil. Below 5 considered coarse (or sandy) while above 20 (or fine) would be clay. Most like something in the middle but it takes many years to change your CEC to make it higher (think ray the soil guy here, if you have not watched some of his videos on YouTube or Vimeo I highly recommend it if you want to change your soil).

A relative increase which was still less than 1 if I recall correctly, is not a huge increase but if your soil has pockets containing more large particles then you could have gotten more or less of these larger particles in a soil sample. Same with the OM. I see many people on here and others posting results showing higher OM but in my area even in non farmed areas it seems most of the time my OM is less than 3. Maybe I just take soil samples different as I usually remove the top layer to get to the dirt underneath so I could be getting rid of some of my OM prior to tests as I pull aside pieces of vegetation.

You did not say if both tests were conducted at the same lab but this still could be why the tests were so different. Also like I mentioned earlier, soil tests should be take. At near the same time of year each time as your soil changes at different times of the year. Again we look at consistently taking samples from similar locations within the field/plot to sample size taken and mixed thoroughly sending one sample showing the average over the field/plot to when the sample was taken.


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[Bowman]

Thanks. 3 tests on that plot. First from Whitetail Institute. The second 2, July and August from another lab. The third test was to check on the results which differed for the initial (Whitetail Institute) test.
I will start to split fertilizer applications. Is it the same for lime, considering that it takes time to work?
Can you suggest a particular Ray the Soil Guy video on youtube for CEC?

 

[Smallplot]

As far as lime it will depend on many things but in a nut shell look at the size of particle for your lime. Ag lime usually consists of crushed limestone and has larger sized particles which are less likely to move quickly through the soil but takes longer to see effects. With a finer sized lime, such as found in pelletized lime it works quicker but can move faster through the soil. I will leave recommendations up to someone who as more experience with coarser soils so not to steer you wrong.

As far as videos any of his dealing with soil heath and water filtration tests are a good place to start. He packs a lot of knowledge and they do become addictive trying to figure the best way to incorporate what he teaches into your own program.


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[Bowman]

Thanks for that quick response. I will take all of the help that I can get.

Anyone else have recommendations on single or split applications of lime?

 

[WTNUT]

Bowman,

How on earth did you come up with that mixture. I am not saying it is good or bad, but it is one of the most interesting mixes I have ever seen. I will say when we grow alfalfa for hay we do best with a pure stand of alfalfa. And, as I have said many times and will die saying "never plant alfalfa for a plot if you can't cut and bale the alfalfa". And, that is assuming you have a PH of at least 6.5 and are willing to fertilize the crap out of it.


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[Smallplot]

Bowman,

How on earth did you come up with that mixture. I am not saying it is good or bad, but it is one of the most interesting mixes I have ever seen. I will say when we grow alfalfa for hay we do best with a pure stand of alfalfa. And, as I have said many times and will die saying "never plant alfalfa for a plot if you can't cut and bale the alfalfa". And, that is assuming you have a PH of at least 6.5 and are willing to fertilize the crap out of it.


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Have to disagree on never planting a Alfalfa plot unless it can be baled. The following picture is from this summer in the third year of Alfalfa that was not cut and baled. This alfalfa is just as thick and leafy as that I have planted strictly for hay. The plants do not get as tall in this 2 acre plot but it still feeds a lot of deer throughout the year. Since it was planted I have mowed it once or twice a year with the batwing and sprayed once in 2nd year and twice the establishment year (spring planted by the way). Mowed twice this year only.

Never say never.

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[Bowsnbucks]

I'm no farmer with first-hand knowledge of soil amending. But I've tested rain water and stream water for my Trout Unlimited chapter. I can tell you that some rainfalls & snowfalls are as acidic as lemon juice and vinegar. Electronic equipment doesn't lie. It's caused by air pollution that comes from vehicle exhaust and burning fossil fuels. Also output from the earth's volcanoes. That could be a source of your drop in pH of your soil. There's also a factor called " net alkalinity " of soils and bedrock. It governs the buffering capacity of a localized soil structure to mitigate the effects of acid rain. I learned this info from a Penn State grad who was the chief of waterways for North-Central Pa. for a number of years.

Maybe check with your local soil conservation district and ask about those possible sources/conditions. FWIW.

 

[scott44]

Have to disagree on never planting a Alfalfa plot unless it can be baled. The following picture is from this summer in the third year of Alfalfa that was not cut and baled. This alfalfa is just as thick and leafy as that I have planted strictly for hay. The plants do not get as tall in this 2 acre plot but it still feeds a lot of deer throughout the year. Since it was planted I have mowed it once or twice a year with the batwing and sprayed once in 2nd year and twice the establishment year (spring planted by the way). Mowed twice this year only.

Never say never.

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I have to agree on alfalfa plots not having to be baled, I have alfalfa in strips in all my plots and they are never baled, just mowed. I used to spray them with Cleth to kill the grasses in them and I don't do that any more. Are they weed free and do they look like a hay field probably not but they are a part of my plot and they are used all summer and fall.

What mine looked like on 6/30 before and after mowing.

What they looked like on 7/23.

They are not the prettiest but they use them.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I havent ever planted alfalfa in a food plot, but I use to farm, and we have planted it several times for bales. I have cut and let it lie, without any issues, in fact that is what we would do the prior year before rotating our fields into corn. We would take the first couple crops off in the spring, then anything after that we would just sickle cut and let lay to bank N, apply needed P&K then disc it all under in the fall, and plant corn in the following spring.

But with saying that, alfalfa isnt for every field/food plot. Make sure your ph is up above 6 prior to amendments, make sure the soil is well drained, and on flat ground. I havent tried it, but I dont think top spreading alfalfa would work very well, and I think it would need to be incorporated into the soil, unlike clover. When I farmed, alfalfa had a point of diminishing return, for most of my fields it was 3 years, after that, we fought grasses more then it was worth, so that is when we would disc it under and plant corn for a year.

But if we are talking a small food plot, try strip planting, and see how it does. If it works good for you, go bigger, if it doesnt work out, chalk it up as a lessen learned and move on.

 

[Bowman]

Bowman,

How on earth did you come up with that mixture. I am not saying it is good or bad, but it is one of the most interesting mixes I have ever seen. I will say when we grow alfalfa for hay we do best with a pure stand of alfalfa. And, as I have said many times and will die saying "never plant alfalfa for a plot if you can't cut and bale the alfalfa". And, that is assuming you have a PH of at least 6.5 and are willing to fertilize the crap out of it.


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[4wanderingeyes]

I have ordered from GRO in the past, I ended up with a beautiful plot of rye grass that I am still trying to get rid of, 4 years later. Since, I have found much cheaper sources locally that can provide me with the seeds I want, rather then a mixture of stuff I dont really want. But some of his mixtures fit what food plotters are after, but at a premium.

 

[Bowman]

Sorry to hear that. His old Inner Sanctum and Logging Trails mix did have rye grass in them. The current blends do not. From what I have read about rye grass, I wanted no part, so I passed on both.

I "knew" that alfalfa was picky and after reading about sainfoin, I wanted to give it a shot. Second year in this plot. Last year, I planted oats and rape. Grew nicely and that plot got demolished. This year it germinated nicely, but I had to mow ferns. Have to fix that ph. Saw deer in the plot when working on trails and cutting wood, before I put out cameras. The experiment continues.

 

[H20fwler]

I like to mix a little alfalfa into my clover plots just to fill any small niche my plots could be missing, I don't mow or bale either and mine comes back decent yearly.

Bowman, love to see the Trefoil added in your plot I've been planting it for decades, I put out birdsfoot trefoil. All kinds of wildlife eat it and it is great for honey bees and last for years and years. In the last couple years I've added a lot of chicory in my plots and orchards, the deer were slow to figure it out but now graze through it just like the clover.