Field grown trees anyone?
- Thread starter ncstewart
- Start date
CentralKyHunter
5 year old buck +
My experience, unless your willing to take REALLY good care of them in the pot than they are much better off in the ground.
There are obviously exceptions to both rules . However I don't have time or Dicipline to monitor and care for them properly in containers. As soon as my trees hit the dirt they take off like crazy.
There are obviously exceptions to both rules . However I don't have time or Dicipline to monitor and care for them properly in containers. As soon as my trees hit the dirt they take off like crazy.
Turkey Creek
5 year old buck +
I will second that. I think there are other benefits from growing in the ground as well.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
There are lots of ways to get quality trees and direct seeding is one way. All methods have positives and negatives. With direct seeding, some seeds/nuts are very attractive to rodents. So, the nuts need protection until they germinate. Then, young seedlings are also attractive to rodents, so they need protection and depending on deer densities and the specific tree, the seedlings need protected from deer. In nature, only a small percentage of nuts/seeds will make it to maturity. If you plant a nut in the field, there is a lot of expense in time and treasure for nuts that will never germinate or will germinate but grow poorly.
Trees grown this way expend a lot of energy developing a deep tap root. It takes a long time for the root system to develop and become efficient. There is a balance between root system and top growth. These trees have the assurance of a deep tap root to give them access to enough water to survive during a drought at the expense of potential early growth. Direct seeding is largely trying to take natures shotgun approach where only a few winners survive and stack the odds a bit in favor of the nuts you plant.
The problem with many container grown trees is that tap root. In normal containers it hits the bottom of the container and j-hooks or circles following the contour of the container. While these trees may look great for the first few years in the field, the roots eventually constrict themselves and limit the tree. This was addressed by root pruning containers that many of us are using.
When I start trees from nuts indoors, it provides great cabin fever relief. Root pruning containers are really a system of containers that prune roots in stages. Since the small containers (Rootmaker Express Tray 18s for most of us), prune the tap root quickly, it forces upstream root branching. Since a root system efficiency is a function of the number of tiny root tips, much of the energy goes to producing a very efficient root system. This also allows for faster top growth. Furthermore. there is very little cost associated with germination. Nuts that don't germinate are just discarded with no real investment. Nuts that germinate, but produce trees that are deformed or don't grow well can also be culled early with little investment. Once seedlings get beyond this point your investment increases. Larger containers are more expensive and it takes more time and effort to water them.
Nothing is free. We are trading that natural assurance against drought for maximizing growth. When root pruned trees are planted in the field, they need to have sufficient water until they are well established. After that, because the root systems are so efficient, they can handle some drought pretty well, but this is not an approach I'll choose for arid regions. So, either you need to live in an area like I do where you get ample spring and fall rain or you may need to provide supplemental water for the first year after planting
An advantage of using root pruning containers is that the root system does not get disrupted during shipping and planting like bare root trees. They begin to grow immediately when planted rather than having a year of sleep, and a year of creep before they leap.
So, when I plant a rootmaker tree after one growing season in a container, I can invest in protection and not have to worry about that tree dying.
This thread shows a chestnut started from a nut over the winter and planted the following fall: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...h-rootmakers-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5556/
You can see in that thread a tree that is over 6' tall after one growing season. I don't think you'll every find a direct seeded tree that large that quickly.
Each method has advantages and disadvantages. Like most things with management , you need to match the characteristics of the method with your situation and goals.
Thanks,
Jack
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
I've done both ways the last 2 years. I struggle with starting indoor, over water, under water, water chemistry and feeding? I am not really interested in transplanting to bigger pots and watering all summer. For the amount of effort I am willing and able to put in, direct seeding with enough protection of the nut has been the easier and mostly successful for me. I also have 15 to 20 that were transplanted from starter pots and those are alive and growing. I am able to provide some supplemental water for dry spells but that not been needed much. We'll see how these trees look in a few more years. I'll probably direct seed a few more chestnuts next year.
Merle Hawggard
5 year old buck +
I went to all containers this year because so many of my good looking trees were being destroyed in spite of my protection efforts. We'll see how I do with this for a few years, I may go back to direct seeding if this turns out poorly.
I am able to water pretty easy on one of the farms so that should help get my container trees through any dry spells.
I am able to water pretty easy on one of the farms so that should help get my container trees through any dry spells.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
One option for an outdoor bed is a Missouri Gravel Bed. I recall several folks on the other site were experimenting with this. It is supposed to improve root structure and make extraction easier. It may be worth a look. There is nothing wrong with just using a bed to grow seedlings but like all approaches, there are pluses and minuses. One minus is much of the energy used to develop the root system is lost when the tree is extracted. While B&B may be less shocking that bare root, either way, transplant shock causes a setback while the tree recovers after transplant.
Keep us posted on how it works for you.
Thanks,
Jack
Merle Hawggard
5 year old buck +
Lol, he has a lot more time than I do though.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Without a doubt!
I would very rarely - if ever - plant a seed / acorn in a container above ground! On that other site (the one that went kafluey), I demonstrated how I developed the milk-carton method of seedling development where I planted acorns in milk jugs in the ground. Unless you have gobs of time to play with your above ground container trees, mother nature is much better at regulating temperature and moisture retention than most of us will ever be. I direct seed whenever possible , and with very little effort protect my seeds from rodents. I always plant 2 acorns in each spot (15" apart) and guess what, more often than not both germinate ... It's easy, just plant acorns that have shot a radical. The attached photo is a picture of a 15 mo old Regal Prince columnar white oak that I guarantee you has a well established root system that will ensure it's rapid growth. Here it is Aug 14 and it is still shooting new growth (picture taken today). Unless it gets extremely dry, I won't have to water it more than once/twice before it goes dormant (and I would water it to promote additional growth not to avoid death) I have no problem with folks who like to putter with above-ground container trees
it's just that I have too much other habitat work and other interests to devote the time and energy that is necessary.
The Regal Prince columnar white oak in this photo is 15 months old with - I guarantee you - a well developed root system. It was a container tree I grew from seed in April 2015 and transplanted September 2015. I expect it to really take off next year.
it's just that I have too much other habitat work and other interests to devote the time and energy that is necessary.
The Regal Prince columnar white oak in this photo is 15 months old with - I guarantee you - a well developed root system. It was a container tree I grew from seed in April 2015 and transplanted September 2015. I expect it to really take off next year.
Attached is a photo of a swamp white oak that was grown in an in-ground container; do you suppose it's root structure is sufficient for survival?
P.S it's best to take them out of the ground for transplanting with as much soil attached as possible (like the one in the tray); however, the one with bare roots has sufficient root structure to make it (will need more watering).
P.S it's best to take them out of the ground for transplanting with as much soil attached as possible (like the one in the tray); however, the one with bare roots has sufficient root structure to make it (will need more watering).
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Nice seedling. It is a great example of how not only climate, but objectives come into play when selecting a method. Growing trees in root pruning containers can be done both above and in-ground. There is no doubt an in-ground approach requires less attention but more work and issues when transplanting. If you live on your ground and can care for direct seeded trees you have an advantage there as well. One reason I like the root pruning container approach is that I'm an hour and a half away from the farm. Care for trees at my house is easy and they get daily examination and attention when needed. Once my trees are planted at the farm, they need to be able to thrive on their own without support for me. That is largely because I'm planting in volume and don't have time to care for many trees. So, for me the larger and healthier and faster growing a tree is when I plant it, the better.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Great example. That is a better root system than most bare root trees have and certainly enough for survival. You are right about keeping as much of the root ball as possible intact when transplanting but the disturbance still causes transplant shock. This means the tree spends a season reestablishing itself.
That points out another difference between the root pruning container trees and bare root or B&B trees. Because the containers unwrap and the number of secondary and tertiary roots are far greater, the tree does not need to be transplanted when dormant. You can transplant trees from RB2s in the dead of summer if you want as long as there is sufficient water. For those planting in volume, this gives you a much wider planting window. I'll typically start transplanting my RB2 trees in September, stop when our season rolls around and then pick up again in the winter through spring as time permits.
The extra growth from root pruning containerized trees is well worth it for me, but that may not be true for everyone.
Thanks,
jack
You suppose this guy knows anything?
Advantages of Direct Seeding and Importance of the Taproot
Acorn Collection, Storage, Sorting, and Planting for the Establishment of Native Oaks Without Supplemental Irrigation
Ronald W. Motz
November 5, 1995
Excerpt from: Proceedings of a Symposium on Oak Woodlands: Ecology, Management, and Urban Interface Issues March 19-22, 1996, San Luis Obispo, California USDA Forest Service Pacific Southwest Research Station PSW-GTR-160
Acorn Collection, Storage, Sorting, and Planting for the Establishment of Native Oaks Without Supplemental Irrigation
"Although the most common method of planting oaks is from containerized seedlings, direct seeding of acorns into the landscape produces clearly superior trees. The root system develops naturally without the twisting, girdling, or spiraling that often occurs in traditional containerized seedlings. Most important, the taproot grows at its natural rate without any premature termination or damage. The taproot is able to penetrate deeply to the water source while also providing a firm anchor to the seedling and food storage to help ensure survival.
The taproot grows from the end (apical meristem), and once it is exposed to air or damaged, as is inevitable in traditional containers, it never regenerates (although multiple replacement roots usually form at the point of injury.) A seedling without a taproot will have less chance of survival without supplemental irrigation since it will never develop the root system nature intends for it to successfully adapt to the planting site."
Advantages of Direct Seeding and Importance of the Taproot
Acorn Collection, Storage, Sorting, and Planting for the Establishment of Native Oaks Without Supplemental Irrigation
Ronald W. Motz
November 5, 1995
Excerpt from: Proceedings of a Symposium on Oak Woodlands: Ecology, Management, and Urban Interface Issues March 19-22, 1996, San Luis Obispo, California USDA Forest Service Pacific Southwest Research Station PSW-GTR-160
Acorn Collection, Storage, Sorting, and Planting for the Establishment of Native Oaks Without Supplemental Irrigation
"Although the most common method of planting oaks is from containerized seedlings, direct seeding of acorns into the landscape produces clearly superior trees. The root system develops naturally without the twisting, girdling, or spiraling that often occurs in traditional containerized seedlings. Most important, the taproot grows at its natural rate without any premature termination or damage. The taproot is able to penetrate deeply to the water source while also providing a firm anchor to the seedling and food storage to help ensure survival.
The taproot grows from the end (apical meristem), and once it is exposed to air or damaged, as is inevitable in traditional containers, it never regenerates (although multiple replacement roots usually form at the point of injury.) A seedling without a taproot will have less chance of survival without supplemental irrigation since it will never develop the root system nature intends for it to successfully adapt to the planting site."
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
I would like to know more about your milk-carton method, and protection for direct seeding in general. Care to post specifics?
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is a great citation. It demonstrates the important of using a root pruning container system rather than traditional containers and points out the benefit of establishment without supplemental irrigation.
It shows just how important it is to adapt your approach to your region. Take a look at Dr. Whitcomb's research. Too much to post but his Lacebark web site has lots of references. There is no doubt you trade off a deep taproot for much faster growth and a much denser more efficient root system. It does require supplemental water during the first year of establishment if you don't live in a climate with adequate moisture. I'd never suggest trees from containers for arid regions nor would I suggest bare root or B&B without supplemental irrigation. Direct seeding is probably the best bet there.
There is no hands-down best approach. Your citation constrains itself to a by comparing traditional containerized seedlings to direct seeded trees and excludes trees grown in root pruning container systems that improve the root structure and the use of supplemental water during establishment. Within that context it is absolutely correct. However, I've seen no research that suggests that direct seeding produces superior trees over seedlings grown in a root pruning container system with supplemental water during establishment. In fact, all the papers I've seen show the opposite.
Thanks,
jack
