Can you really get away with less Pelletized lime

[Peplin Creek]

This question has been bothering me and I need an answer, Guys, if your ground required 1 ton of lime, can you really get away with applying less if it’s pelletized lime? It seems like if your soil required x number of lbs to get your soil to proper ph, why does the form of it matter aside for how to spread it? Please help me understand why companies tell you, if you use pelletized lime you don’t need as much. I am struggling to understand it.

 

[FarmerDan]

I think it depends on the source and the grind of the lime. See, best I can tell, a lot of pellitized lime (maybe not all) is made from the fines (floor sweepings to put it another way) that result from grinding limestone for ag lime. The particles are very small. The smaller the lime particles, the more soil surface area those tiny little pearls can affect. While the pH boost is quick(er) the impact soon fades. Ag lime has some of those tiny particles but it also has bigger piece that breakdown slowly over time thereby extending the reaction. Long ago I worked for a company that was one of the first to package pelleted lime. Ours was made with ag lime, not floor sweepings and, in fact, it probably had a disproportionate percentage of larger particles. Now, probably not so much.

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Agronomy/Extension/ssnv/ssvl189.htm

Can you get away with less? Well, it's a great theory, but in practice I would recommend a ton of pellitized lime or a ton of ag lime on an equal basis.

I don't know that this is from pelletized lime, but the story's the same. Look at the calcium carbonate equivalent -- 109%. So this lime has a finer than average particle size and will neutralize to a standard with application of much less lime - "This product requires 1743 lbs to equal 2000 lbs of standard liming material. But, that's not necessarily better....for the long haul.

 

[yoderjac]

This question has been bothering me and I need an answer, Guys, if your ground required 1 ton of lime, can you really get away with applying less if it’s pelletized lime? It seems like if your soil required x number of lbs to get your soil to proper ph, why does the form of it matter aside for how to spread it? Please help me understand why companies tell you, if you use pelletized lime you don’t need as much. I am struggling to understand it.

First, I'm not great in soil science and I'm sure there are guys on this forum who can give you a more detailed answer, but here is my general understanding for what it is worth. The format of lime (Pelletized, verses Ag pulverized, or whatever) can have an impact on how fast (or long) the pH adjustment occurs. Changes in particulate size and surface area can speed or slow the reaction. Typically with a given soil type, a faster acting lime form typically does not last as long.

The amount of lime you need to add to achieve a particular amount of pH adjustment is primarily driven by the Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CCE) of the lime. The higher the CCE, the less tonnage required to achieve the same pH adjustment.

It is not because the lime is pelletized that you need more or less, it is simply because they are comparing their lime's CCE to another lime with a lower CCE. The added amount you will need of ag lime compared to a pelletized lime with a higher CCE is generally much smaller than the cost difference between the two. In general the deciding factor is whether you have the ability to spread ag lime or how much more expensive it is to spread ag lime over pelletized lime.

In general, pelletized lime can be spread with inexpensive equipment and if you have the time you can spread it yourself. You need specialized equipment to spread ag lime. If you have access to that equipment for a reasonable cost (say a lime buggy rental for the day), you will generally save significantly by applying a larger amount of ag lime with a lower CCE than a smaller amount of pelletized lime that may happen to have a higher CCE. You probably have to run the numbers based on prices in your area, but this generally holds true.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Peplin Creek]

Ah, this makes sense, thanks guys. The place where I get my lime from sells it in three different forms, ag lime, granulated and then pelleted. I have opted for granulated because of cost and still being able to spread it with a broadcast spreader. I’ll have to pay attention to the CCE level moving forward and cost to see which makes more sense.

 

[FarmerDan]

You might should probably re-think your use of granular lime - if you are referring to what I know as granular lime. In my scenario, granular lime particles are so large as to have little neutralizing power.

 

[Peplin Creek]

You might should probably re-think your use of granular lime - if you are referring to what I know as granular lime. In my scenario, granular lime particles are so large as to have little neutralizing power.

You certainly have my attention... wouldn’t it eventually break down over time? Seems like a great educational moment.

 

[FarmerDan]

Here's a source for a great explanation about lime, CCE, and particle size. Find the section about that - particle size. Do you have a bag of granular lime? Look at the label. Does it tell what percentage of material would pass thru mesh of a particular size? Again, just an assumption on my part, but granular lime - ah, how to say this -- granular lime is too big to pass thru mesh. The particle size is 1/8 - 1/4 inch. It will break down - in 10 or more years!

See Figure 6 and Table 3.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/452/452-510/452-510.html

Or maybe I misunderstand what you mean by granular lime?

 

[yoderjac]

Here's a source for a great explanation about lime, CCE, and particle size. Find the section about that - particle size. Do you have a bag of granular lime? Look at the label. Does it tell what percentage of material would pass thru mesh of a particular size? Again, just an assumption on my part, but granular lime - ah, how to say this -- granular lime is too big to pass thru mesh. The particle size is 1/8 - 1/4 inch. It will break down - in 10 or more years!

See Figure 6 and Table 3.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/452/452-510/452-510.html

Or maybe I misunderstand what you mean by granular lime?

But there may be an application for it. I'm not sure. I know some folks who have very sandy soil and have to apply several tons of lime at planting time twice a year. I wonder if the larger particle size would move more slowly through the sandy soil.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sagittarius]

I like the summary at the end of FarmerDan's link ...
"Summary
Pelletized lime is an excellent source of high quality lime. Its use in agriculture has been limited due to the price. The recommended rate of pelletized lime should be based on the neutralizing value of the lime and will probably be about 75 to 80% of that for average-quality bulk ag lime. Contrary to popular belief, the speed of reaction of pelletized lime is no faster than that of bulk ag lime. Thus, when comparing the two materials, less pelletized lime is needed to raise the soil pH to the desired level, but the increase in pH is no faster than with ag lime if both are applied on the basis of their neutralizing values."

Then you have the "guaranteed analysis" on the label above .... magnesium 13.03%(water insoluble Mg). If a rock actually contained 13% magnesium, would it be the worlds most valuable magnesium mine? Or is the 13.03% the magnesium carbonate percentage of the limestone composition, making it a dolomitic limestone?

 

[Peplin Creek]

Here's a source for a great explanation about lime, CCE, and particle size. Find the section about that - particle size. Do you have a bag of granular lime? Look at the label. Does it tell what percentage of material would pass thru mesh of a particular size? Again, just an assumption on my part, but granular lime - ah, how to say this -- granular lime is too big to pass thru mesh. The particle size is 1/8 - 1/4 inch. It will break down - in 10 or more years!

See Figure 6 and Table 3.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/452/452-510/452-510.html

Or maybe I misunderstand what you mean by granular lime?

That’s very interesting, I would say that the particles are less than an 1/8 inch big. So I am sure it breaks down overtime. It does work, but now I am questioning how cost effective/efficient it really is compared to pelleted lime.

 

[Peplin Creek]

But there may be an application for it. I'm not sure. I know some folks who have very sandy soil and have to apply several tons of lime at planting time twice a year. I wonder if the larger particle size would move more slowly through the sandy soil.

Thanks,

Jack

That’s my thought too, so if you amend the soil with something that doesn’t disovle as fast. If enough is added to correct the ph. In theory the amendment should last longer.

 

[yoderjac]

That’s my thought too, so if you amend the soil with something that doesn’t disovle as fast. If enough is added to correct the ph. In theory the amendment should last longer.

I'm not sure that is quite the case. Again, I'm not a soil scientist. My thought is that once initially amended, it takes years for my heavy clay to need maintenance lime. I'm told this is because the amendments move through clay much more slowly than through sand. Folks with sandy soil need maintenance lime much more often. Some folks tell me they have to add tons right at planting time because it moves so fast.

I'm not sure I know enough about the relationship between the chemical reaction causing the pH change and the movement through the soil. As I understand it, particle size and surface area are related to how quickly the reaction can tale place. As Sagi points out, the fact that lime is pelletized doesn't make it work faster, but I'm not sure what all is involved in the process of pelletizing it. I know with ag lime, the particle size is a factor in speed.

My question and though was whether the larger particle size that takes longer to break down would also slow the movement through sand. I don't know the answer but I'm wondering if that would be an application for it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sagittarius]

The sad truth is that there is no accurate naming convention for ground limestone. You have Ag lime, pelletized lime, coarse barn lime, fine barn lime, garden lime .... the reality is, it can all come from the same limestone quarry, or different quarries. You really need to get into the carbonate content (both calcium and magnesium carbonates) Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CCE), and particle size to determine short and long term effectiveness on your soil type. Then if you factor in the incorporation depth (surface, 4", 8") you really start getting deep into it. Any type of accurate absolute answer requires effort, sampling, and calculation. The best time to broadcast lime is still, yesterday, and today, but keep it fun.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

My recommendation is to put about what the soil test says, then just add exactly "some" every year, or every other year, retest in 5 years or so, and adjust your amounts to your new soil test and repeat. People need to remember you are talking about food plots, for deer, the same deer that will spend 20+ hours of their day eating from the woods, where no lime was put down. You arent depending on this for your income, and need maximum yields, or you will loose the farm. Keeping it fun, and within your financial ability should be your number one goal.

Years ago, my wife asked me how much money did I spend on food plots this year. I told her I do not keep track, because it doesnt matter. I enjoy doing it, and I am not spending my money on alcohol, drugs, and I dont spend more then I can afford. Same goes for the work involved. Others see me out there and see me sweating, working my butt off, they come out and help me, and complain that it is too hard, and wonder why I do it? Because it is what I enjoy doing! Moral of the story, keep it fun, dont sweat the small stuff, dont spend more then you can afford, and if it stops being fun, slow down, stop doing it, take a year off, the deer will be fine with out your help!

 

[Peplin Creek]

4wanderingeyes, so very true. Way to keep things in perspective. We sometimes get caught up in all the finer details and we really just need to remember to keep it fun. Things will workout from there.

 

[Bowman]

No hijack intended. For Farmer Dan and Yoderjac: how about building organic matter? Where does that fit in?

 

[yoderjac]

No hijack intended. For Farmer Dan and Yoderjac: how about building organic matter? Where does that fit in?

The best way to build organic matter is from the top down. My first priority is to conserve what I have. I do this through minimizing the frequency and depth of tillage. The only reason I till is that my OM is still low enough that my clay tends to crust. I don't ever go more than the top inch, just enough to break up the crust.

One can add OM through manure but there can be runoff issues with this unless you till it in. Again, you are adding but increasing the burn of OM. I prefer to simply add it by smart rotation. Just like in composting you want to balance "brown and greens", I try to select plants that balance Carbon and Nitrogen. That is grasses and legumes. Practices like mixing some corn in with my soybeans and surface broadcasting a cover crop of WR/CC/and PTT into the standing beans when they yellow, and drilling GHR/WR into suppressed clover are examples of this. Rotating things like buckwheat in after a perennial clover field is exhausted.

Significant OM changes can take decades. Nature itself builds OM over time. When OM is too low it is usually because we have done something to cause it (erosion can be an example). In rich glaciated areas, we can get often away with a lot of poor soil health practices for many, many years and still have sufficient OM. Many of us are not in prime farm country and are operating on more marginal soils. Even here, if your inputs are high enough folks can usually grow stuff but it is not cost effective for farming.

There are a lot of good deer food that can tolerate poor pH and infertility. I'm fine with surface broadcasting lime a little over time knowing that eventually it will travel to root depth. Taking a bit more time for soil to amend is no big deal since it is still producing good deer food.

Again, I'm no soil scientist. But as I understand the principles, proper microbial life in the soil can play an important role in fertility. Nature is able to grow quality food without any added lime for fertilizer. Some soils are more productive than others. I find it most effective to slightly bend nature rather than to work against it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowman]

I know that this is a too general question. What are the minimum size fields for corn and soybeans?
Now I am asking for guidance. Last year, in one field I planted sudangrass, buckwheat and Arvika peas on June 7. I brush hogged 8/1 as I read that mowing sudangrass is supposed to greatly increase the root growth. I seeded peas, soybeans, radish, clovers, brassicas and rye 8/23 and cultipacked. The sudangrass was laid down but was not killed and regrew after the mowing. We had an unusual summer in upper Michigan, very cool, many lows in the 40's. I overseeded with rye 9/21 and 10/4 as i did not see too much growth except for the sudangrass.
Now I am waiting on the rye in spring and see if I have any clovers. Soil Ph in this field is 6.1. Any suggestions?

 

[yoderjac]

I know that this is a too general question. What are the minimum size fields for corn and soybeans?
Now I am asking for guidance. Last year, in one field I planted sudangrass, buckwheat and Arvika peas on June 7. I brush hogged 8/1 as I read that mowing sudangrass is supposed to greatly increase the root growth. I seeded peas, soybeans, radish, clovers, brassicas and rye 8/23 and cultipacked. The sudangrass was laid down but was not killed and regrew after the mowing. We had an unusual summer in upper Michigan, very cool, many lows in the 40's. I overseeded with rye 9/21 and 10/4 as i did not see too much growth except for the sudangrass.
Now I am waiting on the rye in spring and see if I have any clovers. Soil Ph in this field is 6.1. Any suggestions?

I don't think there is a minimum. Folks next to farms with hundreds of acres of soybeans can probably grow a quarter acre with no problem. It really depends on the kind of beans (ag verses forage) weed competition, and browse pressure. I can say that for me (no ag other than pasture within 3 miles) deer couldn't kill 3 acres of RR Eagle Forage beans but they kept them naked all summer and they never canopied or produced pods. They easily would have killed 3 acres of ag beans that year. When I got to 7 acres of Eagle beans they canopied and produced pods. Heavy browse pressure but the deer could not keep up with the beans. They had reached the tipping point. After years of doe harvests, an coyotes beginning to use our farm, our numbers dropped pretty dramatically in 2014. For the next couple years we had to limit doe harvests and I was able to grow ag beans. I say this to show that even in one specific location, the number of acres of beans and type may vary pretty significantly.

Folks in your zone can probably offer more specific advise. When I plant perennial fall clover with a WR nurse crop, I don't expect anything from the clover in the fall. The WR my only get a few inches tall depending on when I plant and deer keep it mowed back. By the following spring the WR takes off but gets tough and does not provide much deer food but it keeps weeds at bay while the clover is establishing. In my area, it is important to mow the WR back to 6"-8" (depending on the variety of clover) each time it gets over a foot that first spring. This release the clover allowing it to get enough light without killing the WR and allowing weeds to get take over. I let the WR die on its own in the summer and by then the clover has filled in pretty well.

If you are trying to establish perennial clover, I wouldn't do anything until you see what you get this summer. Keep in mind that clover may go dormant depending on variety during the hot dry summer and you won't really know what it will be like until next fall.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Redonthehead]

Thankfully I live in an area of low real estate taxes and low cost lime. Just prior to our deep freeze I had 30.7 tons of ag lime delivered and spread for $505.