An evolving approach to wildilfe management

[Native Hunter]

Crimson, I took up your offer on researching the deep south. Here is a link on dog fennel from the deep south - The University of Florida.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ag233

While this is speaking of the destruction to grass pastures and not clover, I think we can draw some pretty good conclusions. Facts as stated from the University of Florida are:

• "Dogfennel (Eupatorium capillifolium) is an aggressive native perennial found throughout much of the Southeast. Dogfennel is particularly troublesome in unimproved or overgrazed pastures where it adds to the decline of forage yield and quality." You can't tell me that if it can add to the decline of forage yield and quality of pasture that it can't do the same thing to clover.

• "The growth will generally consist of a single, non-branching shoot that can exceed 8 feet in height." 8 feet - wow, maybe you need to shade the clover with semi dwarf apple trees.

• "In addition to growth from seed, dogfennel can spread from underground rootstocks. These rootstocks arise from the main taproot and grow laterally in all directions. This process will result in the production of distinct plant colonies in only three years." A colony of 8 foot tall weeds in only 3 years. Does that sound good for a clover plot?

• "The data indicate that a pasture with > 50% infestation will yield 42%–74% less bahiagrass than a dogfennel-free pasture, if dogfennel removal is performed in May. Waiting until August to remove dogfennel from pastures with > 50% infestation resulted in a more than 75% loss in bahiagrass yield. As such, we recommend that dogfennel be controlled as early as possible if more than half the pasture is infested." :eek: Nothing left for me to say. This says it all.

Did I mention anything about a curse during this conversation....:D

 

[Native Hunter]

First let me say, I'm not a soils guy. I'm just learning and it is a very complex subject. So, this is only a question to consider. I think most would agree anything growing is better for soils than nothing growing. Erosion, wind and water, is the first thing that comes to mind but I'm sure there is more. I know cause I had some 10+ year old logging decks that wouldn't even grow weeds when we bought the place.

So, here is the question: What happens in terms of soil biology when clover goes dormant? How does that compare to the soil biology and nutrient cycle when clover is growing under the shade of another plant (be it chicory or dog fennel or some unnamed "weed")? Could the long term advantages of keeping clover growing in the summer along with some other shade plant outweigh the negatives of the shade plant if it is not an optimal choice? When I used to mix chicory with ladino, I would mow before the chicory would bolt.

The important thing here is not that either of you have the "right" answer, it is that you guys are both thinking deeply about the specifics of "weeds" and making what you believe is the best choice given your situation and judgment. I contrast that with the average new food plotter who thinks "That is not what I planted, kill it!".

I think my question is sort of a Dgallow question but I haven't seen him post over here and it would take me 2 weeks of study to get a reasonable understanding of his answer. :D

Thanks,

Jack

Doug is a brain on steroids. He happens to be a friend of mine who has visited my farm. He seemed to be pretty impressed with my "weed" production, and I'm not talking about pot.:D

BTW - he wouldn't like for his cows to eat dog fennel because of this statement from the University of Florida paper I cited above:

"Cattle do not normally feed on dogfennel, but they may eat it when more suitable forages are lacking. However, the leaves contain low levels of the toxin tremitol, which causes dehydration when ingested by cattle."

That would be a curse....:D

 

[Ouachita]

Jack,
I don't know much about soils but I agree that plant cover of any sort may help prevent nitrogen violatization and leaching. My impression is that corn belt of Iowa has such high fertility due the glaciers dumping top soil from from further north during the ice age, and cold winters and lower rainfall rates reducing nitrogen loss from volatization and leaching. Lane

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Picture taken at midday. Native Hunter....How is shade effecting "yield"?

 

[Native Hunter]

Picture taken at midday. Native Hunter....How is shade effecting "yield"?

You are going to have to tell me what I'm looking at. I see a shady spot on some clover but I don't see a colony of 8 foot tall weeds.

What am I supposed to be looking at in this picture??

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I don't know much about soils but I agree that plant cover of any sort may help prevent nitrogen violatization and leaching. My impression is that corn belt of Iowa has such high fertility due the glaciers dumping top soil from from further north during the ice age, and cold winters and lower rainfall rates reducing nitrogen loss from volatization and leaching. Lane

yes, I think highly fertile soils can take a lot more abuse and bounce back. I believe more marginal soils are more affected by poor practices.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Picture taken at midday. Native Hunter....How is shade effecting "yield"?

I'm user any competition affects "yield", but the question becomes when is "yield" important to food plotters. It is only important when you local deer herd overbrowses it. If there is significant amounts of food left over after the period one is trying to cover, then the yield, whatever it turns out to be is sufficient.

There is also one more factor we need to consider is cost in both time and money. Most of us have limited time and budgets. When I'm spending resources controlling weeds, there is some other aspect of habitat management I'm not doing. So, one more consideration is triaging the marginal benefit of weed control over other habitat projects.

I got to say this has been a great discussion!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

I still want to know what I am supposed to be looking at in that picture.

I see some clover with some shade on it (from something blocking the sun) but I don't see a colony of 8 foot tall weeds.

I don't see the point of that picture relative to this discussion.

Everyone knows that clover will tolerate and even benefit from some shade. But that has nothing to do with direct root competition with an aggressive weed.

So what is the picture supposed to prove???

 

[mglenn005]

Anyone who wants to send some weed my way, I would appreciate it. As far as I know, nothing has grown on this gravel pit for 30+ years after being mined for coal and pigment.

Maybe I don't want dog fennel, but I would take any grass. Erosion sucks!


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[wiscwhip]

Both buckwheat and cereal rye will germinate in a pickup box, have you tried either of those on that mine site? One other thing that might hold some promise is hairy vetch(crown vetch may be a better choice, but it can become invasive if one is not careful), it is a non-native, but I'm guessing since no native plants have filled that area in all these years, a non-native is better than bare ground. Sweet clovers and birdsfoot trefoil may also be worth a look. I found a publication from the Alabama Forestry Division which might have some contacts for you to investigate further? Maybe you have already seen this? Might be some resources that can help financially if they were shown the amount of erosion you have going on out there?

http://www.forestry.alabama.gov/Publications/TREASURED_Forest_Magazine/2005 Spring/Alabama's Reforestation of Abandoned Mine Lands.pdf

 

[mglenn005]

Both buckwheat and cereal rye will germinate in a pickup box, have you tried either of those on that mine site? One other thing that might hold some promise is hairy vetch(crown vetch may be a better choice, but it can become invasive if one is not careful), it is a non-native, but I'm guessing since no native plants have filled that area in all these years, a non-native is better than bare ground. Sweet clovers and birdsfoot trefoil may also be worth a look. I found a publication from the Alabama Forestry Division which might have some contacts for you to investigate further? Maybe you have already seen this? Might be some resources that can help financially if they were shown the amount of erosion you have going on out there?

http://www.forestry.alabama.gov/Publications/TREASURED_Forest_Magazine/2005 Spring/Alabama's Reforestation of Abandoned Mine Lands.pdf

Yes, rye will grow. It's actually what is brown in the picture (mostly fescue - but in the fall rye was prominent). (Notice how well it grew in the gully that was protected by a cut pine tree. I cut 50 pine trees to control runoff by placing in low wash areas - you can see in the background too.) I also can get fescue to grow but it cannot just be broadcast onto that bare ground (needs to be disked then broadcast). Same with Millet. The area needs lots of lime (low ph and even lower nutrient presence).

I haven't looked lately into the Alabama forest stuff, but did a few years ago. We didn't seem to fit what they were looking for or we didn't communicate correctly.

I don't necessarily want this area to be a footplot but I sure would like for it to not be barren wasteland. I have planted some sawtooth trees. They are alive and some are doing better than others. Gonna get some Chinese chest best from the Tn guy (whp I think) and give it a shot in the future.

Here is a shot of Millet/fescue test area that was tilled, limed (750# ag) and seeded. It was slow to develop but exploded in the spring. Since this picture, we've expanded this to about 0.25 acres surrounding the green patch. The deer kept the fescue mowed tighter than a golf course.

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[yoderjac]

Another thing to consider is bicolor lespedeza. It is a non-native and can be invasive under some conditions, so if you go that route be sure to work with some professionals and evaluate your situation thoroughly. It is a perennial legume that grows 8'-10' tall. I believe it has been used to remediate after strip mining in some areas. It produces lots of tiny seed for birds. Deer will use it for fawning. They don't eat it much, however, they will eat it when it is young, especially if they don't have other better food sources.

Autumn Olive is a much more invasive non-native species. Many folks are spending a lot to try to keep it in check. It was popular for wildife in the 60s along with bicolor. At any rate, one guy told me that deer browse young autumn olive. After removing his large hedgerows of it, he just keeps it mowed and it feeds deer and does not produce berries which spread it.

If you can get bicolor established, you might consider a similar technique. I either burn or mow mine high every 3 or 4 years to keep the stand healthy. It bounces back quickly. I have also been successful at removing stands of bicolor and growing RR beans and corn. (I'm using it as a visual block not to reclaim land). I had some bicolor come back in the beans the first year but not enough to keep the beans from canopying. By the second year, there was no sign of the bicolor in the beans.

Not saying this is the answer, but just one more option to rack and stack.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[wiscwhip]

Yes, rye will grow. It's actually what is brown in the picture. (Notice how well it grew in the gully that was protected by a cut pine tree. I cut 50 pine trees to control runoff by placing in low wash areas - you can see in the background too.) I also can get fescue to grow but it cannot just be broadcast onto that bare ground (needs to be disked then broadcast). Same with Millet. The area needs lots of lime (low ph and even lower nutrient presence).

I haven't looked lately into the Alabama forest stuff, but did a few years ago. We didn't seem to fit what they were looking for or we didn't communicate correctly.

I don't necessarily want this area to be a footplot but I sure would like for it to not be barren wasteland. I have planted some sawtooth trees. They are alive and some are doing better than others. Gonna get some Chinese chest best from the Tn guy (whp I think) and give it a shot in the future.


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Well, I did see the Chestnut Foundation folks do have a page on their website speaking to mine reclamation, maybe start there for some pointers?

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I think your best bet is getting some trees started as well as maybe some kind of bushes. Doug posted up a video once upon a time on how they were reclaiming desert in Africa that had been abused through intense over grazing. The foundation of their efforts was the acacia tree. I’m not sure what would be the equivalent tree for your spot but that is what I would look for.



NH…..The above pic illustrates the affect that the intense southern heat has on clover when exposed to direct midday sun. You can look at the pattern on the ground and see how the clover that is being exposed to the midday sun is turning crispy and going dormant while the clover that is shaded for the hottest part of the day keeps growing. Without the shade in this situation…..”yield”, as you were quoting, is zero. This was very likely the same concept that was playing out in the original story with the dog fennel and clover. There was a nice balance of dog fennel to clover where it allowed the understory to be shaded from the midday heat but not so much as to completely smother it.


Clover is not the weak plant that we make it out to be when given the right conditions. It can actually grow very well amongst other plants and is actually what I would consider to be a companion plant anyways. Its function is to provide fuel to the other plants.... so that in itself tells you that it is adapted to grow with other species. It seems to handle the competition better with some species more than others. From what I’ve seen it grows better with midstory and overstory broadleafs rather than low growing grasses and such.

 

[wiscwhip]

It seems to handle the competition better with some species more than others. From what I’ve seen it grows better with midstory and overstory broadleafs rather than low growing grasses and such.

What you are describing has more to do with the fact that those broadleaf plants and other species that clovers "compete with better" are single plants and are non-sod forming, not the height of the canopy, even though the shade provided by those taller species is beneficial. Sod forming grasses are what you see that will out compete clovers(and just about all other plants), but when the clover plant has it's own "space" on the soil, they are very competitive with most other plant species. Native clovers(and other legumes) thrive in areas of mixed tallgrass prairie where most of the grasses have a clump/bunch type growth pattern, not so much in sod grass species.

 

[Native Hunter]

I think your best bet is getting some trees started as well as maybe some kind of bushes. Doug posted up a video once upon a time on how they were reclaiming desert in Africa that had been abused through intense over grazing. The foundation of their efforts was the acacia tree. I’m not sure what would be the equivalent tree for your spot but that is what I would look for.



NH…..The above pic illustrates the affect that the intense southern heat has on clover when exposed to direct midday sun. You can look at the pattern on the ground and see how the clover that is being exposed to the midday sun is turning crispy and going dormant while the clover that is shaded for the hottest part of the day keeps growing. Without the shade in this situation…..”yield”, as you were quoting, is zero. This was very likely the same concept that was playing out in the original story with the dog fennel and clover. There was a nice balance of dog fennel to clover where it allowed the understory to be shaded from the midday heat but not so much as to completely smother it.


Clover is not the weak plant that we make it out to be when given the right conditions. It can actually grow very well amongst other plants and is actually what I would consider to be a companion plant anyways. Its function is to provide fuel to the other plants.... so that in itself tells you that it is adapted to grow with other species. It seems to handle the competition better with some species more than others. From what I’ve seen it grows better with midstory and overstory broadleafs rather than low growing grasses and such.

The things you have stated about clover are things I have known since the third grade. Who on this forum with any significant experience doesn't understand those things? That picture shows nothing more than that clover can benefit from shade in the hot sun - nothing more.

I still have the same question:

Where are the 8 foot tall aggressive, toxic, perennial weeds in that picture that can colonize a spot in 3 years and are in direct soil competition with the clover - root to root?

 

[yoderjac]

I don't think that was the point of his picture. I think the whole dog fennel discussion started when some from the deep south reported dog fennel in his actively growing clover in the middle of the summer and asked what to do. I think CNCs point was that folks from that area without invading dog fennel were experiencing dormant clover and the dog fennel was, at least in the short run, having a positive impact.

Personally, my advice would have been similar but not identical. I would have let the dog fennel stay as long as possible before going to seed and then mow toward the end of the hot dry period. I probably would not go as far as letting it terminate naturally, but I would have taken full advantage of the positive contribution it was making in terms of shade. I like the thought process though. The guy with the problem was thinking "weed...what do I spray". We should be thinking: "Unsown plants in my field...what are they?...why are they there?....are they contributing to my goals or interfering with them or having no real impact?...If I try to control them what impact will that control have on other plants including but not limited to the ones I planted?...What long-term impact will it have on my soils?...

So, I think the point of the picture was to show that in his area, the impact of summer sun and heat was having a significant negative impact on clover and that the shade created by other plants (desirable or undesirable) would have a positive impact on the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

I don't think that was the point of his picture. I think the whole dog fennel discussion started when some from the deep south reported dog fennel in his actively growing clover in the middle of the summer and asked what to do. I think CNCs point was that folks from that area without invading dog fennel were experiencing dormant clover and the dog fennel was, at least in the short run, having a positive impact.

Personally, my advice would have been similar but not identical. I would have let the dog fennel stay as long as possible before going to seed and then mow toward the end of the hot dry period. I probably would not go as far as letting it terminate naturally, but I would have taken full advantage of the positive contribution it was making in terms of shade. I like the thought process though. The guy with the problem was thinking "weed...what do I spray". We should be thinking: "Unsown plants in my field...what are they?...why are they there?....are they contributing to my goals or interfering with them or having no real impact?...If I try to control them what impact will that control have on other plants including but not limited to the ones I planted?...What long-term impact will it have on my soils?...

So, I think the point of the picture was to show that in his area, the impact of summer sun and heat was having a significant negative impact on clover and that the shade created by other plants (desirable or undesirable) would have a positive impact on the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack, as you and I discussed while we were on the other forum, our interest in "permaculture" and long term goals in that direction seem to be extremely close to being the same. I think we will continue to share information and converse on those things at this forum as well - at least I hope so.

However, I'm finished posting in this thread because it has become so elementary that it is of no benefit to me. No one knows everything, but to spend a lot of time reading things I have known since the third grade is not a beneficial use of my time.

Also, since I have already made my points (backed up by a highly respected regionally accredited university) and no one even seems to want to discuss those facts, there appears to be little or no benefit for me to keep repeating the same things over and over.

I have a tremendous amount of experience in weed science and have applied it successfully over many years. This began with farming, moved on into general habitat management, and finally including food plotting later in my life. I am the only person in this conversation who has stated that they actually create and manage "beneficial weed plots" so perhaps that should mean something. I might do a thread on that subject someday, but if I do, it will be more advanced information than the fact that clover can benefit from shade.

Another good thing about me bowing out is that some of my hard, unanswered questions (like the fact that dog fennel left unchecked can colonize a spot in three years) don't have to be answered. That should relieve some pressure from those needing to provide an answer. I don't want to put any undue pressure on anyone - we have enough of that in life as it is.

Good luck with this thread and the discussions. I'm looking forward to some future threads and discussion that have more appeal to me personally.

Thanks - Steve

 

[yoderjac]

Steve,

I hope I didn't say anything to push you away from this thread. I certainly don't have the experience in weed management that you and others do. I'm still in learning mode and expect to be for many years. The complexity of weeds and soils have always intimidated me. I'm beginning to get a handle on the big picture but don't have a grasp of the specifics. I'm trying to wade through and begin to understand from more experienced guys.

I'd absolutely love to see your thread on weed plots.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I’m not for sure why there’s so much attitude in this thread. I don’t ever remember you being like this on the other forum NH. I thought this thread was about discussing outside of the box thoughts/ideas and now you’ve insured that anyone who might have spoken up before will likely hesitate to do so now out of fear of being ridiculed. It seems to just come with the territory of new ideas though.