J-birds place

I was out moving cams and found something unexpected.....as you can see from above all the boys where still pack'n......I got one around that isn't pack'n as much any more!


Also seems that some work from a year ago or so seems to be paying off. I hinged some trees on a small bench I have....the deer have left there mark. There are 10 "deposits" in the distance of maybe 20 yards..... Normal when you poop on something it's a bad thing......in this case I think its a good sign!


Further description of the area.


Update on the bean plots.....
SW plot is pretty stripped clean.....that is where the trail cam pics are from, while the south plot (larger) is still providing grain. You can see the green (winter wheat) in the pics as well that got overseeded in the fall.


I bumped a deer out of my switchgrass as well. It has held up fairly well to the snow and ice we have had thus far....found a couple of beds as well.

All those deer in your plots must mean the motocross track closed for the winter..

Bill said:

All those deer in your plots must mean the motocross track closed for the winter..

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ALL the activity is at night....ALL of it. And the fact that it is after hunting season, does my hunting little good. It's great the deer are using my place in some capacity.....but I fear that as soon as the weather breaks come spring and the motorcross activity picks back up that the deer will again move to a less stressful location. I also know that from seen the deer and the tracks that many deer are still coming from neighbors of 1/4 to 1/2 mile away or so. It's been a very strange year.....

On the bright side they know where your place is. And hopefully the kids out grow the machines in a hurry.

Well Indiana deer season officially closed at 113,596 deer total harvest....down 5% from last years harvest.
This harvest is the lowest it has been since 2004 (2004 was 123,058 and 2003 was 106,986). We peaked in 2012 (136,248) and have been in near constant decline ever since. The "kill more does" mantra has done what it is/was supposed to do.....so now when is enough, enough? When does the DNR dial back the antlerless bonus quota numbers? When does the DNR revoke/suspend the special late antlerless season?

The problem I've seen is once they get that extra $$ rolling in for tags it's tough to stop it. NJ has terrible deer numbers but we can kill ? I'm not even sure. Something like 15'plus does and 5 bucks per year Hunter.

MO actually lowered the number of Doe season days and lowered the limit. Still not enough in my opinion but it seems most guys are doing the managing themselves.

Somehow hunters have to start learning they are the best feet on the ground Intel and manage themselves. Why do we need the government to tell us what's good for us and our wildlife?

j-bird said:

Well Indiana deer season officially closed at 113,596 deer total harvest....down 5% from last years harvest.
This harvest is the lowest it has been since 2004 (2004 was 123,058 and 2003 was 106,986). We peaked in 2012 (136,248) and have been in near constant decline ever since. The "kill more does" mantra has done what it is/was supposed to do.....so now when is enough, enough? When does the DNR dial back the antlerless bonus quota numbers? When does the DNR revoke/suspend the special late antlerless season?

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To be fair the DNR did enter the state into an intentional and with cause reduction mode, which planned timespan ended this past season. I'm not saying any of that or the following to defend or like any of it, merely stating some things that occurred.

Also little grid (attached) of harvest totals (yes, most recent years do include park hunt totals in a different way...and yes weapon choices and buck rules have changed in the time frame pictured.

However, as you can tell the state as a whole typically in the modern era have seen a fairly consistent flow of increasing than decreasing harvests across the state. Only 1 time have we seen more than 2 straight years with a decrease, and only twice have we seen an increase more than 3 years straight. Our ten year running average was over 100K in 1999, over 110K in 2007 and for the past 10 including this year's total is averaging 126,211.

While the overall statewide harvest trends seem rather normal the issue I'm finding is there are definitely pockets throughout the state experiencing far less deer now than say 6-12 years ago. Shoot I even share a property with a guy that swears deer are going extinct at times LOL. BUT some areas truly are hurting...habitat loss, parcel divisions into smaller and smaller sections, over-harvesting and EHD have hurt pockets...

If you are on Facebook j-bird check out the Indiana Deer Hunters Conservation Alliance. What I love about the group is the direction it seems they desire to head. They love and understand educating the hunting masses will make the biggest difference...attempting to be an organized but remain professional alliance group that ultimately has the goal of teaching approaching hunting from a conservational mindset.

God bless brother!

Oh, and everything I've heard from Joe Caudel I'd expect the continued dialing back of bonus figures in counties as we have the past couple seasons moving forward more and more. Me personally though, the impact those figures make is almost negligible as less than 2% of all successful hunters on average take over 3 deer a season total....shoot the way tags are in IN one can harvest 4 deer without even using them if they take their buck in firearms season...less than 1% of successful hunters take 5 or more....which is why I think the DNR could make every county an "A" county and the difference many want to see over night still wouldn't occur.

I do bet we see more and more drop to 3's over the coming years as that will remove counties out of the late antlerless season which many despise.

tynimiller said:

Oh, and everything I've heard from Joe Caudel I'd expect the continued dialing back of bonus figures in counties as we have the past couple seasons moving forward more and more. Me personally though, the impact those figures make is almost negligible as less than 2% of all successful hunters on average take over 3 deer a season total....shoot the way tags are in IN one can harvest 4 deer without even using them if they take their buck in firearms season...less than 1% of successful hunters take 5 or more....which is why I think the DNR could make every county an "A" county and the difference many want to see over night still wouldn't occur.

I do bet we see more and more drop to 3's over the coming years as that will remove counties out of the late antlerless season which many despise.

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Tyni,
I think we could get together for beers and sit all day and talk about deer, habitat and management and the like! In general I think we are on the same page. I think I am maybe a little more aggressive in my expectations. I agree in that I think some adjustments will come over time.....my concern is just how long it will take and what damage will be done in the meantime. We have a very reactive DNR. We don't have a published deer plan and some of what the DNR does or doesn't do seems to be a day late and a dollar short. I am sure the deer will stabilize if given the chance. I personally don't see why anybody needs to be able to kill 7 or 12 deer...... If most don't take that many (and the data says they don't) then what good is that bonus number any way? If that is the case then you need to reduce the opportunity.....reduce the use of firearms. Eliminate the special late season, potentially even reduce general firearms season, and reduce those bonus numbers even if it only affects a small percentage. These where all tools the DNR used to reduced the deer herd.....they need to take a hard look at if they are still needed. Just because we have a certain tool in our box doesn't mean we use it every time....

j-bird said:

Tyni,
I think we could get together for beers and sit all day and talk about deer, habitat and management and the like! In general I think we are on the same page. I think I am maybe a little more aggressive in my expectations. I agree in that I think some adjustments will come over time.....my concern is just how long it will take and what damage will be done in the meantime. We have a very reactive DNR. We don't have a published deer plan and some of what the DNR does or doesn't do seems to be a day late and a dollar short. I am sure the deer will stabilize if given the chance. I personally don't see why anybody needs to be able to kill 7 or 12 deer...... If most don't take that many (and the data says they don't) then what good is that bonus number any way? If that is the case then you need to reduce the opportunity.....reduce the use of firearms. Eliminate the special late season, potentially even reduce general firearms season, and reduce those bonus numbers even if it only affects a small percentage. These where all tools the DNR used to reduced the deer herd.....they need to take a hard look at if they are still needed. Just because we have a certain tool in our box doesn't mean we use it every time....

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Yup, take for example those harvest 5 or more deer in 2015 and 2016 was so miniscule I agree the change is rather minimum. Personally I struggle to find justification taking more than 2 or 3 any given year (did 0 this season) and I hunt 3 various different localized herds even within my main county. We are on the same page there.

I would state though slight disagreement to the statement the DNR doesn't have a plan, well didn't I guess would be slightly unfair to them. They made it very clear what was it now 2012 I believe that reduction was the 5 year plan...and in some areas this perhaps got vastly too aggressive. I know many an idiot that feel just because they buy a bundle they must fill that whole thing...which is why I'm a fan of doing a duo not a triple/bundle option. While there are groups fighting to educate hunters on conservation minded approaches we also must acknowledge there are many far more passive or less addicting guys and gals hitting the woods blindly misunderstanding it all and they want to "get their money's worth".

The IDHCA I'm actively involved in and the big thing I've noticed is a push towards hunter education in habitat. Vastly too many hunters view crop ag ground as a deer mecca instead of the true deer desert it is most of the months out of a year...or how open understory mature oak flats truly outside of acorns are providing zero for the deer and we shouldn't be seeing deer. Check them out, if you are not on Facebook I'll be sure to let you know once they get the website and stuff flowing formally. I've brought up area guys in their various districts doing habitat walks open to members, I'll keep you abreast to it all!

**Also I agree, beer and deer (or bourbon) are always two things I will waste anyone's time on! LOL!

Hang on to that spreadsheet I posted a few posts back though....I also have one someone else does that has all the records for each county even. Once he updates it for 2017 season I'll be sure to get it to you! Great tool for attempting to see overall trends and the big picture (counties) and HUGE picture (statewide).

tynimiller said:

Hang on to that spreadsheet I posted a few posts back though....I also have one someone else does that has all the records for each county even. Once he updates it for 2017 season I'll be sure to get it to you! Great tool for attempting to see overall trends and the big picture (counties) and HUGE picture (statewide).

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I have my own spreadsheet in which I have been tracking my own county for several years. I have the state deer harvest reports of several years as well to pull the county dtaa out of if needed. I like data......if I ever had the time I would like to put some of the harvest data together with some of the social carrying capacity data the DNR shared last year I think it was. It showed number of crop complaints, deer accidents and the like for all the counties. I think I shared a link to it in earlier posts. Data and numbers are not perfect, but they can go a long ways in getting past emotion. I follow a couple groups on FB regarding Indiana's deer issues IDHCA is one of them. I also follow the IWDHM (Indiana Whitetail Deer Herd Management)......I think one may have been a spin off of the other....but not sure about that.

I was taking advantage of the nice weather today and went out and trimmed up some of my apple trees (I do NOT pretend to know what I am doing). I simply thinned them out to remove competing limbs and remove the crossing and crowded areas to facilitate air circulation. I did save some of the ends though to help learn how to graft! I have a crab apple I plan to turn into a frankentree!


Also took some "before" pics for a "deer trail/winding plot" project I want to implement this year as well. Right now there is an edge between a timbered south facing slope and a weeds/switchgrass buffer at the edge of a corn field I have. I think a nice 4 foot wide or so clover/chicory may be just the ticket to put deer on a different path than the hunters and one I can take advantage of while hunting.

Steering deer definitely works. They like easy, quiet walkways and if you add greens ......... I think your stand will see action. I like your plan along edges.

I'm with BnB, that will work. They seem comfortable walking any edge. The greens just sweeten the deal and give them a reason to continue on. What is the ultimate destination for them? Or is this a direction of travel they already take.

Bill said:

I'm with BnB, that will work. They seem comfortable walking any edge. The greens just sweeten the deal and give them a reason to continue on. What is the ultimate destination for them? Or is this a direction of travel they already take.

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They move along this edge as it is to some extent, but I will have a small plot at one end and a larger plot at the other. Below is a sat pic with some overall concept ideas. The black circles are known bedding areas. The blue is an area that like to hold water that I may convert into a water hole. The red is stand access and stand locations. The plan is to put food at each end of the "trail". Deer like to walk the edge between the ag field and the weeds But we use that for access at times (that south ag field is ALWAYS corn) - so I wanted to move them to a safer edge that they sort of use already. The north ag field is higher in elevation (rotated between corn and beans) than the south one and the strip of trees in between is on a fairly decent slope the weed areas are flat and at the lower elevation. This why the access routes come from the top and I avoid walking the edge of the south ag field....even though it is so tempting. I figure a more secure path will hopefully result in more daylight and consistent movement. By trying to better put the deer movement in one area it can help me hunt better and educate the deer less. I am considering a tower type blind very near the potential water hole location as well, but that is still undecided. That would be for gun hunting as that point that is there seems to be a hub of deer movement in this area but can be difficult to hunt with a bow.

j-bird said:

They move along this edge as it is to some extent, but I will have a small plot at one end and a larger plot at the other. Below is a sat pic with some overall concept ideas. The black circles are known bedding areas. The blue is an area that like to hold water that I may convert into a water hole. The red is stand access and stand locations. The plan is to put food at each end of the "trail". Deer like to walk the edge between the ag field and the weeds But we use that for access at times (that south ag field is ALWAYS corn) - so I wanted to move them to a safer edge that they sort of use already. The north ag field is higher in elevation (rotated between corn and beans) than the south one and the strip of trees in between is on a fairly decent slope the weed areas are flat and at the lower elevation. This why the access routes come from the top and I avoid walking the edge of the south ag field....even though it is so tempting. I figure a more secure path will hopefully result in more daylight and consistent movement. By trying to better put the deer movement in one area it can help me hunt better and educate the deer less. I am considering a tower type blind very near the potential water hole location as well, but that is still undecided. That would be for gun hunting as that point that is there seems to be a hub of deer movement in this area but can be difficult to hunt with a bow.

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I know you don't like fences in the woods but I'd block them out of a triangle on that outside corner and lay in wait :)

I think your plan is a good one.

Bill said:

I know you don't like fences in the woods but I'd block them out of a triangle on that outside corner and lay in wait :)

I think your plan is a good one.
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it's funny you marked where you did. The lines thru the trees is roughly where the deer limit their activity as it is. It gets real steep on that point and really limits deer activity except for between the trees and the buffer strip with the north field (where the deer avoid the steep area). I think if the cover was better/deeper in that area on top of that point the deer would bed there as well as it is one hell of a view of the bottom ground. I have really considered putting in some snow fence or drop some trees or the like to prevent what little movement in that area as it is. That point is so steep that I am considering actually building a ladder to facilitate a quieter and safer path for people because it's that tough. I am not climbing a mountain, but it's real easy to fall in that area. Navigating that area in the dark with only a small light and a gun and gear is not fun. What is interesting is how the deer travel along the slope of the bank and work around the top very similar to where your lines are. Or they stay low and go around the point....and why I debate if I want to be on top of the slope or the bottom from a hunting perspective. I am not sure what the actual elevation change is off the top of my head. But the deer (like people) have found that it's easier to take a long path (almost parallel with it) across the slope vs going straight up and down (perpendicular) to the slope.

I have a stand in one of those places you darn near have to crawl for about 75 yards because it is so steep. I tied a rope to a tree at the top and draped it down the hill. It really helps to be able to hold on and pull yourself up.

With hills that steep does the wind hit the hill and swirl back down to the bottom?

Bill said:

I have a stand in one of those places you darn near have to crawl for about 75 yards because it is so steep. I tied a rope to a tree at the top and draped it down the hill. It really helps to be able to hold on and pull yourself up.

With hills that steep does the wind hit the hill and swirl back down to the bottom?

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In my area in most cases it will flow on up and over the slope. It's not a sheer face, and the slope is only part of the issue. The soil is pretty grainy in that area and just getting a decent foot hold with out it falling apart under you is the biggest issue. Toss in a little moisture and your gonna bust your ass or your face.....all depending on which way your going! I'm trying to find a site where I can easily track down the elevation change without having to load some software to do it.....just to see what the elevation change really is (my entire county elevation is only 725 feet from the highest to the lowest point!). I used to have google earth and could get some neat visuals with that but damn IT shut that down....what else am I supposed to do at work?