Plowing/Disking in the Fall

I try to stay out of these topics,
Ive been on both sides of the argument.

Way I see it...

It's like cutting down the rainforest to look for new species. While in the short term it is a major boom. Doesn't take long before its busts.
 
In my immediate area the first several posts about why fall plowing is done seem to be spot on. We have heavy clay around here, typically decent rain in summer (holding moisture in summer not a problem) and fall plowed fields are first to melt in spring and start to dry out at least a couple weeks before hay fields and such. Must be why the mega farm (worth hundreds of $$millions, properties across three separate states but headquarters here) tend to do this practice like others in this area. Don't think they are soil idiots, all three owners are graduates of UW Madison and partner with the University in their business. They milk over 30,000 cows a day. From their web page..

named Dairy Today’s Innovative Dairy Farmer of the Year for 2014, Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce’s 2014 Business Friend of the Environment, Wisconsin Family Business Council’s 2015 “Innovation & Sustainability” Award winner, the 2015 Zoetis Diversity and Inclusion Award winner, a 2016 Wisconsin Top Rural Development Initiative Award winner and one of three finalists for the 2014 and 2015 Wisconsin Leopold Conservation Awards

They have even purchased their own corporate jet to visit their properties (know guys who have been on it) and must be soooo stoopid to farm the way they do and give up all those profits that barndog mentions. The stuff he mentions probably work really well in some situations....some situations not or otherwise these guys would do different and they probably do but not in this county.....

This is a great conversation, stimulating and thought provoking. I think you have to be careful about assuming big farms = great profits and that what "they" are doing is the right thing to do. I don't know. They might be soil educated, but might not care. I don't know. My first thought is that they are probably terribly inefficient. Who can manage that many acres and cows? I don't know.

I think we have learned that leaving bare ground overwinter is probably a bad practice for reasons too numerous to get into here. I do understand why we do it. We do it because we perceive there to be an advantage to plowing / disking in the fall. With that many cows to feed trying to do it all in the spring is impossible. The planting window is very short. Doing field work now just reduces the burden in a compressed spring calendar. All those other things about wet soils and warming and other deep thinking stuff - maybe. Maybe not.

Don't beat-up BarnDog. The ideas he brings are correct, but how best to implement them is an open question. And rather than turn this into a pissing context, I think all any of us can do is acknowledge differences without being caustic about it.

And I'm (LOL) going to violate my own warning by saying, maybe if those guys would give up the jet, they could buy some cover crop seed? Hahahahahaha
 
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Sorry, I get riled up too when I see the same message from the soapbox many times. Not a farmer here, just observing what I drive by every single day going to work. Of course I agree less tilling is better......or wait is it less herbicide so no-till is evil....I get so confused! Maybe all the no till guys can join the Roundup lawsuit....just kidding

To clarify, think they "only" manage about 6500 head in this county. The rest are across their other properties, which they may very well do different practices at. Just saying they ain't stupid and are like 4th generation farmers and have done other practices which have won them the conservation awards listed above.
 
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I agree, Dan. It's all open for discussion. What BarnDog describes, as well as many others here, I'm doing to some extent on my plots. It's a learning experiment. Maybe someday my family's farm can try some of it on a larger scale. I do think strip-tilling is a good place to be. As mentioned though, weed issues exist, and an extra pass or two of chemicals would be reality. Every area is different and calls for different methods - truth. Most of our slopes are 0-2% and the only soil we may possibly lose in a year is some wind blown dust during a few vulnerable weeks. We also plow under 240 bu/ac corn stover yearly. I know that's not soil per se, but it's a bunch of OM. Rollier areas of a few farms get left untilled and planted through.

I like clean air and clean water. I think most people on the web making videos are selling something. Need to always keep that in mind, even if they have good intentions.
 
Where I am at, if you plant corn and want it to dry some before it is harvested means November or later. No cover crops gonna happen this far north that time of year. Beans around here can get harvested and cover crops started in Oct.
 
The no-till pioneers in this area (multiple families) are currently on record that cover crops aren't economically feasible. While others are using and experimenting with them. Everyone's books are different.
 
I'm open to all ideas, but I prefer to get information on topics like this from people who are actually in the trenches. It's easy for any of us to read some publications and think that's how all farmers should be farming. If a person is farming for a living and can report on how no till/conventional tillage has impacted them it has some merit. Other than that, it's just comments from the peanut gallery
 
Where I am at, if you plant corn and want it to dry some before it is harvested means November or later. No cover crops gonna happen this far north that time of year. Beans around here can get harvested and cover crops started in Oct.

Covercrops can be planted weeks before harvest


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Covercrops can be planted weeks before harvest


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Which still might get you nothing.
 
Weeks before harvest around here is our first frost. Guess you can aerial seed thru the corn and take your chances on good growth. Nobody does here though. Somehow would guess that might be a clue on probable success and ROI.
 
I think I may have posted this before, but I couldn't find it, but why do many farmers plow and or disk their fields in the fall and leave the dirt exposed all winter?

VV

Because they either care more about short-term profits or are ignorant about soil health. I'm guessing that many are on such fertile soil that they can get away with the abuse. On the more marginal soils that many of us food plotters are on, the symptoms of the tillage abuse evidence themselves much sooner.

I think NRCS is doing a pretty good job educating farmers. I've seen less and less of this practice in recent years and more and more no-till operations going on. Many farmers tend to be conservative late adopters. This is by necessity. They can have too many consecutive failures in a row and survive. They want to be very sure any investment in new technology will show sufficient economic improvement to get a return on the investment. However, once convinced they dive in. When NRCS convinces a couple farmers in an area to go to no-till, it isn't long before neighboring farmers see the benefit can buy in.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I'm open to all ideas, but I prefer to get information on topics like this from people who are actually in the trenches. It's easy for any of us to read some publications and think that's how all farmers should be farming. If a person is farming for a living and can report on how no till/conventional tillage has impacted them it has some merit. Other than that, it's just comments from the peanut gallery

Go watch some of "Ray the soil guy's" videos. They have a lot of interviews with farmers that converted to no-till and are showing savings on input costs with equivalent yields in the short run and improving yields with declining input costs in the long-run. While I prefer to look at the science, NRCS provides both the science and the hands-on testimonials from converted farmers.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Because they either care more about short-term profits or are ignorant about soil health. I'm guessing that many are on such fertile soil that they can get away with the abuse. On the more marginal soils that many of us food plotters are on, the symptoms of the tillage abuse evidence themselves much sooner.
Jack

That's kinda' harsh, Jack (I like to pick on Jack, LOL?). You can't assume your knowledge is superior to the knowledge of the guys doing the actual farming. Of course we care about short-term profits! If we don't make it in the short-term, there is nothing else. Some producers are great with mechanics. Some are good negotiators. Some are good at finding land to farm. Some are good with soil science. There aren't many who are good with everything! However it happens, all the "cash input" factors of production must be paid. Soil health isn't one of them. Most land is rented and unless the lessor demands some sort of compensation for soil loss and health, it remains uncompensated. And, that is a cost to be considered both at the farm level and across society. There's a gap that needs to be filled. How to do it is the subject of another debate. Should producers be required to fill the gap? Or, does society have some responsibility.

Farm policy has a role. Let's take the curious case of a farmer participating (getting money) from national farm programs. There's a quid pro quo here. Participation requires the producer to have a soil conservation plan developed by NRCS. Sometimes that plan requires a farmer planting and harvesting corn to knock down the stubble to provide soil cover for the purposes of reducing over-winter soil erosion. Go ahead. Debate the merits if you wish.

In Virginia, the conservation requirement (and economics!) have changed the mix of crop production. For kicks and giggles and other reasons I went back to the 1900 Census of Agriculture to see how many acres of corn were grown in Virginia. Let's just say, today, its one-fourth of the 1900 amount. Now, perennial forages - hay and pasture - comprise over half the harvested acreage here. How's that for cover crop utilization?

Move forward to the moment. Over the past decade the local soil and water conservation districts have provide, free, cover crop seed to farmers willing to plant it. Debate that if you want. But, what it did was give the "missionaries" the opportunity to say, see for yourself if this makes any difference. It's not a big program because we are now a wheat-soybean rotation. But, the free cover crop seed program has made a difference.

Finally, a personal experience. The idea that cover crops can scavenge soil nutrients, well, I just couldn't get my head around it for the longest time. But, now, it makes perfect sense. Instead of nutrients leaching thru the soil and into groundwater, the cover crop sucks them up for overwinter storage, and then releases them in the spring? Did I get that right? Now, I have to change my whole way of thinking about what happens and how to do it. I think I'll go back to bed.
 
That's kinda' harsh, Jack (I like to pick on Jack, LOL?). You can't assume your knowledge is superior to the knowledge of the guys doing the actual farming. Of course we care about short-term profits! If we don't make it in the short-term, there is nothing else. Some producers are great with mechanics. Some are good negotiators. Some are good at finding land to farm. Some are good with soil science. There aren't many who are good with everything! However it happens, all the "cash input" factors of production must be paid. Soil health isn't one of them. Most land is rented and unless the lessor demands some sort of compensation for soil loss and health, it remains uncompensated. And, that is a cost to be considered both at the farm level and across society. There's a gap that needs to be filled. How to do it is the subject of another debate. Should producers be required to fill the gap? Or, does society have some responsibility.

Farm policy has a role. Let's take the curious case of a farmer participating (getting money) from national farm programs. There's a quid pro quo here. Participation requires the producer to have a soil conservation plan developed by NRCS. Sometimes that plan requires a farmer planting and harvesting corn to knock down the stubble to provide soil cover for the purposes of reducing over-winter soil erosion. Go ahead. Debate the merits if you wish.

In Virginia, the conservation requirement (and economics!) have changed the mix of crop production. For kicks and giggles and other reasons I went back to the 1900 Census of Agriculture to see how many acres of corn were grown in Virginia. Let's just say, today, its one-fourth of the 1900 amount. Now, perennial forages - hay and pasture - comprise over half the harvested acreage here. How's that for cover crop utilization?

Move forward to the moment. Over the past decade the local soil and water conservation districts have provide, free, cover crop seed to farmers willing to plant it. Debate that if you want. But, what it did was give the "missionaries" the opportunity to say, see for yourself if this makes any difference. It's not a big program because we are now a wheat-soybean rotation. But, the free cover crop seed program has made a difference.

Finally, a personal experience. The idea that cover crops can scavenge soil nutrients, well, I just couldn't get my head around it for the longest time. But, now, it makes perfect sense. Instead of nutrients leaching thru the soil and into groundwater, the cover crop sucks them up for overwinter storage, and then releases them in the spring? Did I get that right? Now, I have to change my whole way of thinking about what happens and how to do it. I think I'll go back to bed.

Sorry if it seem harsh Dan, that was not my intent. It is a bit terse. Let me unpack it. First, I'm not pitting my knowledge against farmers. I have very little as I'm not a soil scientist and chemistry and microbiology are not my strong suits. I'm simply pitting the science as presented by the NRCS soil folks against the anecdotal experience of the subset of farmers that are operating on their anecdotal experience alone.

So let't take my first phrase: "Because they either care more about short-term profits". This was not intended as a criticism. We all do this. When I decide to live a half an hour from where I work and commute back and forth each day, I'm trading off the short-term profit against the harm I'm doing with all that driving. This is just an example of how we are all make that trade off. Parsing my second phrase: "or are ignorant about soil health.", I use the word "ignorant" in its classic sense, not as a pejorative. Either I care more about short-term profit than the harm I cause by driving, or I'm simply ignorant of the science related to the effects my driving has on the planet. So, while it may seem harsh, I stand by what I said, that either they are ignorant of the science or choose methods that sacrifice soil health because of the economics.

I realize the economics and incentives are complex and I agree with all you said in your post. I did not intend my post to be critical of farmers. Until I started messing with deer management and food plots, I never understood my wife's grandparents who had a farm in South Dakota. We would talk to them on the phone and they would ask how is the weather down here and talk about the weather they were having for 10 minutes. When they ask "how's the weather", they meant "How's your life?". The weather is a huge part of your life on a farm. I never understood the commodities future market until meeting her granddad and how it relates to farming. These are smart folks who work hard, take huge risks, and have to work through complex decisions to be successful. Today's modern farmers are amazing users of science and technology and have made huge gains in efficiency.

This is a good thread. Once again, I want to make the point that deer managers and hunters planting food plots are not farmers. Our objectives are different. While there are many things in common between farmers and food plotters and we can learn from their techniques, we can not adopt them thoughtlessly. Understanding the role food plots play in deer attraction and management and how, without the economic pressures of farmers, we can take a much longer-term soil-health approach. We can achieve our objectives by bending nature much more slightly than farmers.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I know, Jack. Leave your chain hanging and I can't help myself!
 
There is a lot more to regenerative ag than simply no-till and cover crops. More to the why's and how's than could be added to this thread. There are entire books about it.

If you make your living farming it would be in your own best interests to contact these places to become fully informed.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/site/national/home/

https://www.sare.org/
 
There is a lot more to regenerative ag than simply no-till and cover crops. More to the why's and how's than could be added to this thread. There are entire books about it.

If you make your living farming it would be in your own best interests to contact these places to become fully informed.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/site/national/home/

https://www.sare.org/

I have failed.....:emoji_rolling_eyes:
 
I know, Jack. Leave your chain hanging and I can't help myself!
Actually it was terse enough, I expected it from someone... :emoji_grinning:
 
I clicked on 1 of those links. Nice pic of a wind tower. :/
 
Here's today's situation. Now how would a no-tiller go about fixing those ruts? Lol. I don't have a road grader.

20191109_110612.jpg
 
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